John Lennon’s Imagine is ‘heart-chilling’, says bishop in Christmas homily

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nocoastlayman said:
Not to burst your bubble but Paul’s mother was named Mary. That being said no one could write that line without evoking some religious feeling.

I have to agree that as a Beatles fan, I don’t really like ‘Imagine’ because it just seems rather naive. Sure some would say that religion has ruined the world, but as a student of history I find religion only ruins when it is used or interpreted wrongly. I’m sure the same could be said about atheism, though in all honesty most atheists don’t seem to be very happy or jolly, or at least most of those who proudly proclaim it.

Overall, I think that sadly, people like Lennon think that all the world’s problems will be solved if we own everything in common and no one has property and religion and we’re all equal. Sadly, like a lot of people, he thinks that man can solve their own problems and replace God. But people need to realize God will take care of things in due time…
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like the book of acts?
 
McCall1981 said:
McCartney has said its in reference both to Mary mother of Jesus and his own mother who was named Mary.

He also said he named his band Wings after praying in the hospital during the birth of his daughter and an image of wings came into his mind.
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That’s awesome. I never knew that. Was Paul actually raised Catholic? I know all the beatles were of Irish decent in Liverpool but from what I heard John was baptized Catholic but raised Anglican, Ringo was part of a more evangelical leaning Anglican church, and George was actually raised in a devout family. I can’t remember if Paul was or not.
 
And at least some of them were of British descent also, George had some French ancestry. John Lennon probably had the most Irish ancestry…

Their backgrounds are discussed here: beatlesireland.info/
 
nocoastlayman said:
That’s awesome. I never knew that. Was Paul actually raised Catholic? I know all the beatles were of Irish decent in Liverpool but from what I heard John was baptized Catholic but raised Anglican, Ringo was part of a more evangelical leaning Anglican church, and George was actually raised in a devout family. I can’t remember if Paul was or not.
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I believe McCartney’s family was nominally Catholic, but not very practicing.
 
Path_Finder said:
I think Bob Dylan was probably influenced to Christianity through Johnny Cash, Country/Americana Music will have artists that remain thoroughly Christian though even some of them are very ‘pop’ oriented as well.

Unfortunately, rock music certainly has its portion of music that is anti-Christian if not in fact, delving into some pretty dark areas, so I’d be careful in its appraisal.

But one is pretty safe with a lot of country music. Then, some country has been very suggestive as well.
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It is interesting reading what the popular press says about Leonard Cohen.
They love his flirtation with Buddhism because that unlike Judaism or Christianity is cool.
Yet they turn somersaults trying to overlook the obvious religious references in his songs

Off his latest album

He says
There is no God above and there is no Hell below
So says the great professor of all there is to know
But i’ve had the invitation that a sniper can’t refuse
It was almost like salvation
It was almost like the blues
 
McCall1981 said:
I believe McCartney’s family was nominally Catholic, but not very practicing.
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Nominally or not once you have been exposed to the richness of Catholicism it stays with you always
You cannot escape it.
 
Path_Finder said:
I think Bob Dylan was probably influenced to Christianity through Johnny Cash, Country/Americana Music will have artists that remain thoroughly Christian though even some of them are very ‘pop’ oriented as well.

Unfortunately, rock music certainly has its portion of music that is anti-Christian if not in fact, delving into some pretty dark areas, so I’d be careful in its appraisal.

But one is pretty safe with a lot of country music. Then, some country has been very suggestive as well.
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I am a big fan of country music and its spirituality.
I came to it from rock music which I found increasingly bland and empty of profundity.
I think the last great reck bands were probably the punk rock remnants.
Nothing in mainstream rock has caught my interest since then.
I do however not like the idea of compartmentalizing music
Bruce Springsteen is a rock musician who has massive spiritual themes throughout his work
 
Durnford said:
Nominally or not once you have been exposed to the richness of Catholicism it stays with you always
You cannot escape it.
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Agreed. McCartney does reflect Catholic influence in his work from time to time, notably Let It Be. He also talked about giving Ireland back to the Irish. I thought Lennon had atheist parents. He once commented that he envied McCartney’s good family life - they were friends when they were very young in Liverpool.

It is great when artists are religious, but I don’t want to make it mandatory. The Marxists did that and the art was pretty bad. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life listening to “Christian rock,” thanks. Don’t even listen to rock hardly that much anymore, but I don’t believe it is evil. My faith is secure enough not to be rattled by listening to Imagine once in a while. I would hope we could all say that. Lots of people search for God and are atheists. I personally can’t even see that as a valid “criticism” when talking about Lennon as a musical talent. Just my opinion.
 
Durnford said:
Popular music is exactly that
Music for the radio. Nothing more nothing less
We should not expect profundity
However as we all know God has a way of breaking through and appearing in unexpected places.

So often in popular music what starts out as a song to entertain and make a bit of money for the composer becomes something more. The longing for God breaks through in the human endeavour.

Bob Dylan is a good example
The Beatles were searching for God and that came out in odd places.

So much popular music is based on old Gospel songs
Elvis, Sam Cook etc were all from a gospel tradition

The powers that be today are determined to exclude all references to religion so God often hides them so they slip through.

We should not bash popular music
It is human creativity which comes form God
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Good observations.

MGM has a motto “Ars gratia artis” (art for the sake of art). One can and will certainly go beyond that, of course, but let’s put things in perspective. Those were interesting times.
 
It was painful to watch John Lennon in particular turn away from what made the early Beatles songs great and then sing Imagine. That song is on my ‘never to listen to again’ list. He did other things in his later years that confused and saddened me.

I applaud the Bishop for his clarity.

God bless,
Ed
 
GEddie said:
Finally someone has the gumption to tell it like it is.

Whatever the social protest mentality that led to this song, it was a paean to atheism and communism.

I honestly don’t know why nonatheists and noncommunists love it so much, except the romanticization of the Beatles and the sixties generally.

ICXC NIKA.
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👍
 
Durnford said:
I am a big fan of country music and its spirituality.
I came to it from rock music which I found increasingly bland and empty of profundity.
I think the last great reck bands were probably the punk rock remnants.
Nothing in mainstream rock has caught my interest since then.
I do however not like the idea of compartmentalizing music
Bruce Springsteen is a rock musician who has massive spiritual themes throughout his work
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I cannot handle country music at all, complete mystery to me why it is in the world. But I know people who just love it. Agreed on rock basically being kind of empty. It’s a simple form of music. Kind of like potato chips. Great in very limited doses. But I do think there is some great rock music - notably from the 50s and 60s, some in the 70s, 80s, etc. If you go back to Buddy Holly, Dylan, Beatles, Stones, Who, Hendrix, etc., etc. some of that is pretty good. The problem was when people turned it into some sort of alternative religion rather than just a past-time. And there was beauty in it, no doubt. Personally music got me through a lot of hard times when I was a teenager, 20s, etc. It is for kids. I think it really does enrich your life and helps to develop self-identity at that point. Also agree on the last serious music being the punk bands, Bowie, Clash, Sex Pistols, Nirvana. It is sad how dead popular music is now. I feel sorry for kids today. As I said, there is a lot of joy there. I hope they have something! And I do love jazz and classical these days. The blues too, Muddy Waters, etc. I couldn’t live without music. Creativity is a gift from God. In all forms, high and low. I am typing this to Bach’s Mass in B Minor. 🙂
 
Durnford said:
In my hour of darkness
Mother Mary comes to me

Why does no-one ever comment on those lines
Seems quite obvious to me
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A) Paul McCartney wrote that and

B) It’s about his own mother Mary.

PM is now highly involved in eastern based meditation having re-discovered it after his brush with it in the late 60’s.
 
In general I don’t think the Vatican feels that Beatles music poses any threat to the Church or faith. In 2010 L’Osservatori Romano, the Vatican newspaper printed quite an affectionate and sentimental piece about them on the anniversary of the groups breakup.

“…their intensely beautiful melodies that changed pop music forever still sparkle like precious jewels and continue to move audiences.”

The article “Seven Years that Revolutionised Music” seems to put the whole thing in perspective.

osservatoreromano.va/en/news/the-seven-years-that-revolutionized-music
 
I agree with the previous post, but i just want to post this link for anyone who missed it earlier in the thread. Its just a jem. This is my present to CAF -this rare one. But you have to listen to the whole thing. 😃

Here it is again. 😃
 
k5thbeatle said:
A) Paul McCartney wrote that and

B) It’s about his own mother Mary.

PM is now highly involved in eastern based meditation having re-discovered it after his brush with it in the late 60’s.
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The reason he wrote it is his reason maybe not God’s
As I have said if you listen you find references to God popping up in unlikely places
The author or songwriter may not even be aware of what is happening
The Beatles made wonderful music
They all searched for transcendence in some form or other
Most of them came from a generic Catholic sort of background and all of them came from poverty
We should be grateful for what they gave us.
If the Velvet Underground could end up singing songs Like Jesus help me find my proper place and the Stones songs like Shine a Light then we should not be surprised to see references to God in the poetry and lyrics of the Beatles.
John Lennon’s life was cut short as we all know.
His last album about the love between a man and a woman was developing all sorts of deeper themes.
I do not get upset when I hear Imagine.
It is a beautiful melody
Some of the themes in there about greed and possessions and jingoistic partiotism are noble and good sentiments
 
TEPO said:
I agree with the previous post, but i just want to post this link for anyone who missed it earlier in the thread. Its just a jem. This is my present to CAF -this rare one. But you have to listen to the whole thing. 😃

Here it is again. 😃
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never really connected with their music, maybe just a few years too old.
 
bisco1 said:
never really connected with their music, maybe just a few years too old.
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It is an acquired taste. But there is no time restraints or generational significance on jam bands. A true ‘jam’ transcends time and space. Just like prayer does.

Maybe its the progressive nature of jam bands, with their unpredictability, that turns people off. -as opposed to structural sounds that one can count on 100% of the time.

…thanks for offering your perspective though. 👍
 
…really, the dilemma between progress and tradition is the crux of everything if you really think about it.

Spirituality, politics, dna, music, education, etc. Nothing escapes it. Nothing.

John lennons “imagine” is no exception.
 
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