John Lennon’s Imagine is ‘heart-chilling’, says bishop in Christmas homily

[bisco1]

i think my musical brain froze when the beatles broke up. not much has penetrated since. even though the dead formed in the mid 60’s, i don’t think there was much on the radio until 1970 or so.

 

[ProVobis]

BTW, what suddenly prompted this debate about a song written in 1971 anyway? It seems that there were other songs (“Eve of Destruction,” “Louie, Louie” etc.) of that period which were equally if not more controversial.

 

[bisco1]

you have to go back to the o/p, it was a homily.

 

[Mark121359]

Never was a big fan of John Lennon. It seems to me that he at times displayed some really vile anti-Christian behavior. One of the more disturbing stories I learned about him came from an article I read about a book from Joseph Niezgoda - The Lennon Prophecy. In it he describes these deeply troubling scenes;

On Dec. 27, 1960, the Beatles played the Town Hall Ball Room in Litherland, England.

“It was said that following this single night’s performance, the Beatles never looked back,” recalls Niezgoda. “Each of the Beatles remembers this night as the turning point in their careers.”

Immediately following this memorable performance, the Beatles began playing in Liverpool’s Cavern Club, where they became a local phenomenon. Then they moved on to Hamburg, where German audiences went wild.

That gig also marked the beginning of Lennon’s avowedly anti-Christian behavior. In the book “The Love You Make” by Peter Brown, he recounts how Lennon donned a dog collar made of paper, cut out a paper cross and began preaching to the Hamburg audience – drawing a mocking picture of Jesus hanging on the cross wearing a pair of bedroom slippers.

***Later, also in Germany, on Good Friday, Lennon targeted a group of nuns with a life-size effigy of Jesus on the cross hanging from his balcony.

“As the sisters gazed in astonishment at this sacrilegious display, John started pelting them with Durex condoms filled with water,” wrote biographer Albert Goldman.

Pete Best, the original drummer with the group, also witnessed such behavior and wrote about it in his own book *describing how Lennon urinated on another group of nuns from his balcony while proclaiming, “Raindrops from heaven!” ****

These were just some of the ways Lennon confronted and antagonized Christian worshippers – for seemingly no reason other than his own amusement.

As disgusting as the above certainly is…may he rest in peace.

Peace, Mark

 

[FollowChrist34]

BTW, what suddenly prompted this debate about a song written in 1971 anyway? It seems that there were other songs (“Eve of Destruction,” “Louie, Louie” etc.) of that period which were equally if not more controversial.

Thank you. You’d think John Lennon was the only left wing atheist who ever lived or sang a song. He gets under people’s skin. He had a tragic, horrible death; we haven’t touched on that but I think it is in most people’s consciences - magnifies him as a popular tragic figure. He was a uniquely great artist, but lost and troubled. Like much of Western modernity - greatness, trashiness and desolation all mixed up. Man without God.

Overall, I would hate to think of my life without the Beatles’ music in it. Many more pluses than minuses. It’s up to us to get good or bad out of it - what we do here says more about us and our spiritual health than Lennon’s.

 

[RACJ]

Thank you. You’d think John Lennon was the only left wing atheist who ever lived or sang a song. He gets under people’s skin. He had a tragic, horrible death; we haven’t touched on that but I think it is in most people’s consciences - magnifies him as a popular tragic figure. He was a uniquely great artist, but lost and troubled. Like much of Western modernity - greatness, trashiness and desolation all mixed up. Man without God.

Overall, I would hate to think of my life without the Beatles’ music in it. Many more pluses than minuses. It’s up to us to get good or bad out of it - what we do here says more about us and our spiritual health than Lennon’s.

I loved most of the Beatles’s work. They were all musical geniuses who brought rock to a new level of intensity. But this particular number, while wonderful musically, may be the most depressing song ever written. Without God, all we humans have to look forward to is death. This idea that humans acting without the guidance of a judgmental God will create some type of harmonious Utopia has been shredded by history. Over a hundred million people were slaughtered in the past century alone by rulers “unshackled” by any deity’s proscriptions for right and wrong.

 

[RACJ]

Never was a big fan of John Lennon. It seems to me that he at times displayed some really vile anti-Christian behavior. One of the more disturbing stories I learned about him came from an article I read about a book from Joseph Niezgoda - The Lennon Prophecy. In it he describes these deeply troubling scenes;

As disgusting as the above certainly is…may he rest in peace.
Peace, Mark

Lennon seemed to be growing up somewhat before his murder. His interview in Playboy was extremely interesting. But at this early point of his life, there is no doubt that he was an arrogant dirtbag. Maybe he hated God b/c of his mother’s death, who knows? But this does not excuse his assaults on sisters, most of whom were probably 100X more decent human beings than Lennon.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I loved most of the Beatles’s work. They were all musical geniuses who brought rock to a new level of intensity. But this particular number, while wonderful musically, may be the most depressing song ever written. Without God, all we humans have to look forward to is death. This idea that humans acting without the guidance of a judgmental God will create some type of harmonious Utopia has been shredded by history. Over a hundred million people were slaughtered in the past century alone by rulers “unshackled” by any deity’s proscriptions for right and wrong.

Ok, just between you and me, I agree - these lyrics ARE atrocious. But I love the melody. Maybe why I stick up for him is that I went through left wing atheism myself. Plus I am emotionally and aesthetically attached to the Beatles; plus I’ve heard the Imagine “message” from so many, many other sources, as you note. It is commonplace in Western leftist mythology of the last 100 years. Lennon didn’t write the script; he followed it irresponsibly - he was not alone in that in 1971. My dad said the same thing. Besides there are songs around these days about raping people, committing suicide, killing cops, you name it. For me anyway, that makes Lennon’s Imagine look like the Sound of Music.

 

[Path_Finder]

I think JL lacked one of his parents growing up, I forget which so, yes, it sounds like in growing up, he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

 

[Path_Finder]

Ok, just between you and me, I agree - these lyrics ARE atrocious. But I love the melody. Maybe why I stick up for him is that I went through left wing atheism myself. Plus I am emotionally and aesthetically attached to the Beatles; plus I’ve heard the Imagine “message” from so many, many other sources, as you note. It is commonplace in Western leftist mythology of the last 100 years. Lennon didn’t write the script; he followed it irresponsibly - he was not alone in that in 1971. My dad said the same thing. Besides there are songs around these days about raping people, committing suicide, killing cops, you name it. For me anyway, that makes Lennon’s Imagine look like the Sound of Music.

Lennon did that album cover, 2 virgins with he and Yoko on the cover au naturelle, he had that “Sometime in NY” album I think it is called with a song titled rather controversially. Undeniably, he had his drawbacks. I am mainly say, looking at positives.

 

[Path_Finder]

I forget the author but I read the book by the houseworker, assistant who was with Lennon in the last year of his life. Really nothing earthshaking. Too bad he did not have a bodyguard around that night.

 

[RACJ]

Ok, just between you and me, I agree - these lyrics ARE atrocious. But I love the melody. Maybe why I stick up for him is that I went through left wing atheism myself. Plus I am emotionally and aesthetically attached to the Beatles; plus I’ve heard the Imagine “message” from so many, many other sources, as you note. It is commonplace in Western leftist mythology of the last 100 years. Lennon didn’t write the script; he followed it irresponsibly - he was not alone in that in 1971. My dad said the same thing. Besides there are songs around these days about raping people, committing suicide, killing cops, you name it. For me anyway, that makes Lennon’s Imagine look like the Sound of Music.

The abominable rap lyrics only appeal to the brain dead. “Imagine” targets the superficial intellect. Communism prevailed in intellectual circles b/c there were JUST enough. kernels of truth in the message to convince those who were looking for a philosophy to justify dumping God. To me, Lennon’s song is hatred dressed as peace and love.
One can only imagine if he’d have been embarrassed by these dreadful, depressing lyrics were he still alive today. I doubt it, judging from the fact that so many liberals still think they are inspiring. Rob

 

[LongingSoul]

BTW, what suddenly prompted this debate about a song written in 1971 anyway? It seems that there were other songs (“Eve of Destruction,” “Louie, Louie” etc.) of that period which were equally if not more controversial.

There is the not small fact that the Bishop of Shrewsbury is a Mancunian and the Beatles were Liverpudlians. The rivalry between these two cities extends to many areas over a long time… music being one of the major ones!

 

[FollowChrist34]

The abominable rap lyrics only appeal to the brain dead. “Imagine” targets the superficial intellect. Communism prevailed in intellectual circles b/c there were JUST enough. kernels of truth in the message to convince those who were looking for a philosophy to justify dumping God. To me, Lennon’s song is hatred dressed as peace and love.
One can only imagine if he’d have been embarrassed by these dreadful, depressing lyrics were he still alive today. I doubt it, judging from the fact that so many liberals still think they are inspiring. Rob

I agree with you pretty much 100% here. But he may have changed; my dad was that generation - he stopped saying that stuff in the mid 80s and became much more moderate. As I recall, right near Lennon’s death, he was planning to meet up with McCartney to do a session of some sort. I remember being so sad that that didn’t happen.

As for hate masked as love, yes, exactly, agreed. Marx was the one who said that religion was the opiate of the masses. The notion of the “progress” of getting people out of religion and into socialism and communism has unfortunately been around awhile now. One of my favorite things about Nietzsche was that he so accurately saw that as a step DOWN, a regression for humanity - socialism/Marxism replacing Christianity in the mind of the common man. The mouse or ‘antihill’ replaces the saint. But at least he has fair wages and free health care - unfortunately not much else. The stones should all be bread; Jesus got it wrong. And, again, we’ve heard this drivel on every college campus since, what, maybe, 1955, earlier? I just don’t think it’s fair to dump it all on Lennon; he was a great artist; I don’t deny he had issues. I am defending him in spite of that. (or maybe because…)

 

[FollowChrist34]

There is the not small fact that the Bishop of Shrewsbury is a Mancunian and the Beatles were Liverpudlians. The rivalry between these two cities extends to many areas over a long time… music being one of the major ones!

I would bet good money he supports Manchester City. Just seems like that type to me…

 

[Path_Finder]

Then what came out of Manchester? The Herman’s Hermits and Hollies? So I don’t think I would judge the Bishop being down on Lennon because he is from Liverpool.

“Imagine” famously is part of the movie “The Killing Fields” and comes at a poignant moment at the end but if any regime was atheistic, surely it was the Khmere Rouge. In the end, if I took all of the Beatles and Beatles-related songs, I don’t think I would pick “Imagine” to be in my top 40 though it is a highly recognized and highly-esteemed song by many.

Lennon played a bit loose and fast with Christianity, he has that song “They’re going to crucify me”, that might even be seen as some people as sacrilegious. I don’t if I’d say that but it is not very reverent.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Then what came out of Manchester? The Herman’s Hermits and Hollies? So I don’t think I would judge the Bishop being down on Lennon because he is from Liverpool.

“Imagine” famously is part of the movie “The Killing Fields” and comes at a poignant moment at the end but if any regime was atheistic, surely it was the Khmere Rouge. In the end, if I took all of the Beatles and Beatles-related songs, I don’t think I would pick “Imagine” to be in my top 40 though it is a highly recognized and highly-esteemed song by many.

Lennon played a bit loose and fast with Christianity, he has that song “They’re going to crucify me”, that might even be seen as some people as sacrilegious. I don’t if I’d say that but it is not very reverent.

Yeah, Lennon mocked Christianity. I don’t think you can sugarcoat it. Although when he made the remark about the Beatles being more popular than Jesus, his tone was misunderstood by most people. He was stating it as a fact, i.e., people care more about popular music than Christianity. He wasn’t saying it in a conquering, triumphant tone at all. I think he thought it was funny and a little bit crazy. Beatlemania was so excessive it actually drove the Beatles into a sort of seclusion for a number of years. Not a good Christian, but not the devil.

Our best bet is to put his attitude in a larger context, especially in light of what he gave to the world. How does that line go? Love covers a multitude of sins… That’s a good one here, for him and for us.

 

[bisco1]

amen to that sister. if i didn’t live to 59, i shudder to think where i would be now.

 

[Path_Finder]

The Ballad of John and Yoko.

He was making an allusion to Jesus, sure. I imagine Jesus is one of the most famous crucifixions we know of at this time.
But I don’t know how it can be sacrilegious or irreverent since crucifying criminals was around centuries before Jesus, and thousands of people were killed that way–before and after him.
Lennon was creatively comparing himself to being on the run and treated like a criminal in the song. The allusion works.

.

He’s comparing himself to a Criminal but specifically mentions Christ. Alrightee!

 

[Path_Finder]

Your knowledge of the Beatles or John Lennon is impressive DaddyGirl.

Though I still disagree about the basic premise of what was under discussion regarding the Ballad of John and Yoko. But don’t let that change anything in regards to your contributing much to this conversation and it is interesting.