John Lennon’s Imagine is ‘heart-chilling’, says bishop in Christmas homily

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yes, that one bothers me too. another good melody, slips into my head from time to time. i try to think of another word, other than crucify, but can’t come up with a good one, and end up rejecting the whole song.
 
The major philosophical problem with Imagine is that it is utterly ignorant of Original Sin and presumes (like most post-modern philosophies) that the problem of evil is external to man. It’s not. It’s internal. We’re broken and doomed without a Savior. Sadly, Lennon’s lyrics reveal that he didn’t comprehend that.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Ok, just between you and me, I agree - these lyrics ARE atrocious. But I love the melody. Maybe why I stick up for him is that I went through left wing atheism myself. Plus I am emotionally and aesthetically attached to the Beatles; plus I’ve heard the Imagine “message” from so many, many other sources, as you note. It is commonplace in Western leftist mythology of the last 100 years. Lennon didn’t write the script; he followed it irresponsibly - he was not alone in that in 1971. My dad said the same thing. Besides there are songs around these days about raping people, committing suicide, killing cops, you name it. For me anyway, that makes Lennon’s Imagine look like the Sound of Music. :rolleyes:
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That right there is the problem. Compared to other heinous songs, it SOUNDS okay, even beautiful. But the error is subtle, but no less damaging. And the song is used as an anthem for beauty and peace, when it is the exact opposite.
 
DaddyGirl said:
This Bishop, sadly, is completely misinterpreting Lennon’s lyrics.
He is not imagining a bleak world of no hope.
He is imagining the opposite—a world where borders of countries, differences of religions, and desire for possessions and the fighting that we have seen arise from all three of these factors–is gone, so that people will not kill each other over these things.
He is imagining a world where people are not divided and separated by these things, but are instead as one.
It’s a beautiful thought.

Lennon is talking more about what the Bishop himself quoted in St. James words: that it is bitter jealousy and selfish ambition over these things that does it.

For the Bishop to not acknowledge that differing religious beliefs has definitely been the catalyst for many wars and bloodshed and murder over the last few thousand years, and still today as we write these words…would be…so, so, factually incorrect, I shake my head in disbelief.

It’s not secular thinking that “causes” wars and it’s not religion that “causes” wars.

If the Bishop is going to say that one mode of belief is not responsible–Theism–he should not then accuse* another* mode of belief–Secularism or Atheism–as being responsible. Because any 6th grade student could spout off a list of wars with religion as their origins.
It’s stupid people with big egos who are afraid and greedy–they do it.
As St. Jame says in the Bishop’s quote:
It’s “the human heart wherever ‘bitter jealousy and selfish ambition’ are found.”
And you can find these qualities in both Theists and Atheists, as we have seen.
We have seen examples of both in history.
We can easily say Hitler was the way he was because he was brought up Catholic and was an altar boy. But we don’t say that. Because we know he did what he did–not because of religion or because *a lack *of religion–but because he was as St. James described.
The Bishop, unfortunately and ironically, is doing exactly what Lennon writes about in his song:
He is specifically naming and creating negative feelings toward one group of people–the Secularists–when it need not be there.
These are the kind of words and ill-feelings that can lead to hatred and war, as we have seen in the past. This is exactly what the song is about.
.
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The only way that the idyllic world that Lennon’s song creates could exist is through the evisceration of free will. This goal, of course, is the dream of tyrants throughout the world. :rolleyes: Rob
 
DaddyGirl said:
The Bishop, unfortunately and ironically, is doing exactly what Lennon writes about in his song:
He is specifically naming and creating negative feelings toward one group of people–the Secularists–when it need not be there.
These are the kind of words and ill-feelings that can lead to hatred and war, as we have seen in the past.

This is exactly what the song is about.
.
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And what the song gets so utterly wrong. Harmful philosophy exaggerates and feeds humanity’s fallenness and most assuredly CAN make things worse. Correct philosophy and theology alone are certainly no assurance of virtue or morality, but they only help, never hurt. The bishop isn’t creating negative feelings towards people, but identifying false and harmful ideas and calling them out and contrasting them with the truth. Basically, that’s what a bishop is FOR. Bravo to him.
 
‘and when the lonely hearted people, living in the world agree, there will be an answer’.

‘and though they may be parted, there is still a chance that they will see’.

this is definitely referring to protestants and catholics.
 
zz912 said:
That right there is the problem. Compared to other heinous songs, it SOUNDS okay, even beautiful. But the error is subtle, but no less damaging. And the song is used as an anthem for beauty and peace, when it is the exact opposite.
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Yes. Just to be clear, I am NOT defending Lennon’s message in that song. I understand its implications perfectly well, and yes, they are misguided and harmful. As for people taking political and moral guidance from pop stars, that is another can of worms. Lennon didn’t create that vulnerability (or more frankly, stupidity). He wasn’t preaching or coercing anyone to follow him; we all have a free will and, of course, it’s a free market, right? He was selling records and espousing relatively superficial, mundane left wing ideology. I don’t have a problem with objecting to or condemning the song, although I think the melody is exceptionally beautiful - if it provides any comfort to anyone, I suspect that is what attracts most people to it, not the lyrics.

As I’ve stated previously, I believe his work as an artist should be viewed in its totality, as God would view any human life. (perhaps you agree with that; I don’t know; just speaking my peace here) As a little one, Lennon and the Beatles have given me many, many cups to drink and will continue to do so.
 
And what I do I will continue to do, in order to end this pretext of those who seek a pretext for being regarded as we are in the mission of which they boast.
For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.
And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
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Lennon was clever. When I think of the songwriting team of Lennon/McCartney, I’m most impressed with Lennon’s caustic wit. Here’s an example: in the song “Getting Better,” Paul writes with his ever-present over-the-top optimism, “I’ve got to admit it’s getting better, getting better all the time,” to which John sarcastically responds, “it couldn’t get much worse.” The contrast makes us laugh. This is an example of how Lennon’s bitter cynicism so effortlessly melds in with the Pollyanna-ish voice found in Paul McCartney’s lyrics. They were a great song team. But after the break-up of the Beatles, John had no one to temper his sneer, and Paul couldn’t stop writing his trivial and often mawkish “silly little love songs.” Despite the fact that both men went on to stellar post-Beatle careers, artistically, they never really ever wrote another great song.

Lennon never grew up. He was abandoned by both his mother and his father at various points in his young life. His aunt Mimi was cold and demanding. He became openly rebellious and was never able to reconcile himself to the disasters of his personal life. His anger – which was always evident – came from a fear that he wasn’t all he was cut out to be; that he was, somehow, insufficient and unlovable – and he acted on these feelings by lashing out at the defenders of traditional morality. And, except for a few glorious years as a Beatle, he was incapable of compromising. He was self-indulgent, over used drugs and alcohol, and cheated openly on his wives.

He was brutally murdered (four bullets to the back) by a mad man on a cold December night outside of his fancy digs at the Dakota just off of Central Park in New York City. Do you think he could have “imagined” that?

The Bishop is right. The lyrics to “Imagine” are antithetical to the Christian message of hope and salvation.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Yes. Just to be clear, I am NOT defending Lennon’s message in that song. I understand its implications perfectly well, and yes, they are misguided and harmful. As for people taking political and moral guidance from pop stars, that is another can of worms. Lennon didn’t create that vulnerability (or more frankly, stupidity). He wasn’t preaching or coercing anyone to follow him; we all have a free will and, of course, it’s a free market, right? He was selling records and espousing relatively superficial, mundane left wing ideology. I don’t have a problem with objecting to or condemning the song, although I think the melody is exceptionally beautiful - if it provides any comfort to anyone, I suspect that is what attracts most people to it, not the lyrics.

As I’ve stated previously, I believe his work as an artist should be viewed in its totality, as God would view any human life. (perhaps you agree with that; I don’t know; just speaking my peace here) As a little one, Lennon and the Beatles have given me many, many cups to drink and will continue to do so.
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This cover’s melody fits the narrative much better.

youtube.com/watch?v=QRDw_hWXogE

Dark, dystopian, and hopeless.
 
August_Carlson said:
Lennon was clever. When I think of the songwriting team of Lennon/McCartney, I’m most impressed with Lennon’s caustic wit. Here’s an example: in the song “Getting Better,” Paul writes with his ever-present over-the-top optimism, “I’ve got to admit it’s getting better, getting better all the time,” to which John sarcastically responds, “it couldn’t get much worse.” The contrast makes us laugh. This is an example of how Lennon’s bitter cynicism so effortlessly melds in with the Pollyanna-ish voice found in Paul McCartney’s lyrics. They were a great song team. But after the break-up of the Beatles, John had no one to temper his sneer, and Paul couldn’t stop writing his trivial and often mawkish “silly little love songs.” Despite the fact that both men went on to stellar post-Beatle careers, artistically, they never really ever wrote another great song.

Lennon never grew up. He was abandoned by both his mother and his father at various points in his young life. His aunt Mimi was cold and demanding. He became openly rebellious and was never able to reconcile himself to the disasters of his personal life. His anger – which was always evident – came from a fear that he wasn’t all he was cut out to be; that he was, somehow, insufficient and unlovable – and he acted on these feelings by lashing out at the defenders of traditional morality. And, except for a few glorious years as a Beatle, he was incapable of compromising. He was self-indulgent, over used drugs and alcohol, and cheated openly on his wives.

He was brutally murdered (four bullets to the back) by a mad man on a cold December night outside of his fancy digs at the Dakota just off of Central Park in New York City. Do you think he could have “imagined” that?

The Bishop is right. The lyrics to “Imagine” are antithetical to the Christian message of hope and salvation.
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wow, did you ever hit the nail on the head. great post. i don’t know where john lennon or george harrison are now, and i don’t know where paul mccartney or ringo starr will be. but when i see talent come together like this on earth, especially meeting at such a young age (what are the odds) i can’t help but think that God had a purpose, and i wish they had used it more for His kingdom.
 
I’ll repeat, the Killing Fields, actually a very good movie imho, probably gave the song a big boost in using it at the finale. I wish they hadn’t done that though it does seem to work well in that.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
I cannot handle country music at all, complete mystery to me why it is in the world. But I know people who just love it. Agreed on rock basically being kind of empty. It’s a simple form of music. Kind of like potato chips. Great in very limited doses. But I do think there is some great rock music - notably from the 50s and 60s, some in the 70s, 80s, etc. If you go back to Buddy Holly, Dylan, Beatles, Stones, Who, Hendrix, etc., etc. some of that is pretty good. The problem was when people turned it into some sort of alternative religion rather than just a past-time. And there was beauty in it, no doubt. Personally music got me through a lot of hard times when I was a teenager, 20s, etc. It is for kids. I think it really does enrich your life and helps to develop self-identity at that point. Also agree on the last serious music being the punk bands, Bowie, Clash, Sex Pistols, Nirvana. It is sad how dead popular music is now. I feel sorry for kids today. As I said, there is a lot of joy there. I hope they have something! And I do love jazz and classical these days. The blues too, Muddy Waters, etc. I couldn’t live without music. Creativity is a gift from God. In all forms, high and low. I am typing this to Bach’s Mass in B Minor. 🙂
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Every type of music has good & bad …I’m a musician & I love all music, but Hate bad examples of every type.
I always liked Jazz, but there are many bad examples I can give of even the same artist. I like most Beatle songs but some are bad like “Yellow Submarine,” for example.
I love Frank Sinatra but he also recorded a couple of 'bombs."
 
truetofaith said:
Every type of music has good & bad …I’m a musician & I love all music, but Hate bad examples of every type.
I always liked Jazz, but there are many bad examples I can give of even the same artist. I like most Beatle songs but some are bad like “Yellow Submarine,” for example.
I love Frank Sinatra but he also recorded a couple of 'bombs."
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Yes, I agree. I hate Yellow Submarine. I never really liked Michelle or Nowhere Man either, lots of others too, Back in the USSR, Yesterday, some of the ones people really love. I try to get into Frank Sinatra and sometimes manage it. I also try to like Billie Holiday but usually fall short. Can’t get into Elvis really, maybe Jailhouse Rock, few others. I think personal taste does play a huge role in what you like. It’s so funny - guess what song came into my head yesterday afternoon? Yep. Imagine. Don’t think I have actually listened to it for at least a year. Talk about irony. Another one I always liked and haven’t heard in awhile - Sitting on the Dock of the Bay - Otis Redding never liked the recording - I love it.
 
After I posted that, I remembered Hound Dog - now that IS a fantastic song. 🙂
 
In a previous thread about “Imagine”, I posited that John Lennon’s own life gives lie to the idealistic message of the song. The dream of a world living together as one is a wonderful one, in fact the prophet Isaiah speaks movingly of it. However as we are still broken and sinful people, it comes ultimately down to the choices we make as individuals, and how we relate to each other. How did John Lennon live this out in his own life? In his relationships with those dear to him, was he a man of peace? Or did he leave bitterness and alienation in his wake? I think particularly of his first marriage and young son that he walked out on. Fortunately they reconciled somewhat in later years. Lennon himself had a very difficult childhood, with parents who were, shall we say, not good role models of selfless love.

It’s easy to rail against conflict in the world and shift blame onto “big” things like religion, politics, heaven & hell. It is much harder for individuals to recognize that they are responsible for bringing peace, love, and joy to those they encounter in their lives, and if we all bring peace, love, and joy to one another, then the world would be a much more peaceful place.

I conclude with saying that Ringo, not John, had it right when he says “please remember peace is how we make it, here within your reach, if you’re big enough to take it”.
 
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