John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[guanophore]

The veneration of Mary, pregatory, salvation by works, traditions that are not found in the Bible, believing one can lose their salvation, praying to saints. Lack of assurance of being in heaven when you die, These just a few.

Good thing that these issues are invented by you, and not part of Catholic doctrine! However, how do any of these pertain to the thread?

 

[Protestant101]

1/ This being the case, it would be interesting to justify why your spiritual ancestors found it necessary to remove some of the books used by Jesus and the Apostles.

2/ I agree, Sola Scriptura being at the top of the condemned list. The other five elements of the TULIP not far behind.

The first statement quoted from you above is quite backwards. The Apocrypha was added by the Catholic Church; not taken away by Protestants. Protestants seek to restore neglected truth; not to take it away.

All the Catholic Church has done, is to exert it’s alleged authority to say “no; we want this Apocrypha added to the Bible.”

Sola Scriptura being “condemned” the way you/your Church says it is, only points to your Church as seeing their authority as Truth; not Truth as our authority, as in Sola Scriptura. Therefore, while perhaps erring on certain points, Macarthur had a good point when he said in the article referred to from his site:

In Roman Catholicism, “the Word of God” encompasses not only the Bible, but also the Apocrypha, the Magisterium (the Church’s authority to teach and interpret divine truth), the Pope’s ex cathedra pronouncements, and an indefinite body of church tradition, some formalized in canon law and some not yet committed to writing. Whereas evangelical Protestants believe the Bible is the ultimate test of all truth, Roman Catholics believe the Church determines what is true and what is not. In effect, this makes the Church a higher authority than Scripture.

There is not supposed to be one dotting of the I or crossing of the T from “Tradition” which is not first, and best dilineated by the written Word.

 

[phoenix3212]

The first statement quoted from you above is quite backwards. The Apocrypha was added by the Catholic Church; not taken away by Protestants. Protestants seek to restore neglected truth; not to take it away.

Wait, what? Protestants removed the deuterocanonical books that had been included in the Bible for 1500 years. Some groups, yes, believed they shouldn’t have been proclaimed inspired when the Bible was being compiled. But some groups also rejected books like Jude and Revelation. So why didn’t the Reformation do away with those?

 

[Protestant101]

What you are showing here is your prejudiced belief that Catholics are not “true Christians”. Of course you are free to disagree with Catholics! You are bringing your prejudice, however, to a Catholic forum! We are not here to provide you with a venue in which you can insult our faith, and our integrity as Christians. CAF is here to provide Catholic Answers to persons making sincere inquiries.

You know as well as anyone else that this forum seeks much more than this. There is a pointed effort here to insult and deride Protestants, to say that they are not true churches; and only you have “fullness of truth;” whatever that is. You are not here just to “answer questions.” That is very plain for anyone to see.

 

[JustMe88]

You do say it is through your own efforts, maybe not with initial grace to believe, but you say that salvation is a continuing process and man must cooperate with God in it. You add Holy communion, water baptism and other rituals to faith and claim these are all part of our salvation process. The Bible claims that salvation is a finished event from the cross that man accepts by faith alone in Christ alone. Eph 2:5

What you are claiming is nothing more than having faith in your faith. Although not Catholic, what I understand of this teaching is that works are a product of faith. Not two entrance tickets, but one.

When studying that NT canon you hold dear, as do I, I hope you realize that it is a product of the Church you are condemning. The NT canon wasn’t finished until almost 400 years after Christ’s death and resurrection, after the Church fathers sifted through 250-350 letters and books claiming apostolic authority. If we were to plop those books and letters down before you right now, could you decide which were to be part of the canon or ? And how would you decide? Would you have to, perhaps, rely on the oral traditions of the founding apostles and their successors?

Before 1452 the Bible was not available to the average person. It has been estimated that a Bible before then would have cost an average of 3 years wages for the average person. 900-1000 sheep skins and 3 years of copying by a monk to produce. Not to mention that before the late middle ages 90% of the population couldn’t read.

So how did they build a Church or Christian faith by sola scriptura when it wasn’t available in a mass produced fashion?

 

[guanophore]

The Luke passage does not tell us to venerate Mary.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? When an archangel, who stands in the presence of God, venerates Mary, we understand that to mean this is godly behavior.

In any case, you seem to be suffering under a misunderstanding that everything pertaining to a good Christian life must be “told” to you in Scripture. This is a misuse of scripture.

We are to love the Lord our God with **all** of out heart soul and mind. To venerate May is put her in competition with our love for God. We then have a divided love.

Such a statement could only be made by someone who does not understand Mary, or her relationship to her Divine Son. Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord. Any honor given to her, she magnifies for Jesus.

Paul told us “to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.” sounds like Paul did not believe in purgatory.

Sounds like you don’t know that Purgatory is to be with the Lord, and to be purified for His presence.

Anything added to faith alone for salvation is a work and the Bible condemns this idea.

LOL



Really? Where does it say that?

A plan of salvation like faith+works=salvation is anathema to the Bible, John 3:16; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.

It appears that you are suffering from a deficient understanding of salvation. I recommend another current thread that is adddressing this topic. It has the word “farce” in the title of the thread. Let me know if you have trouble finding it.

Not one place in the Bible does it say to pray to saints.

More evidence that you are suffering from the misunderstanding that everthing pertaining to the Christian life is confined to the pages of Scripture.

The Bible tells us that Christians today are saints today. Jesus says that we are to pray to The Father in His name. That is how we are to pray.

It is very Catholic of you to say!

Paul never thought he would lose his salvation other wise he would never have written Romans 8.

Well, we read it differently don’t we? However, I agree with you. I think it is more appropriate to say that one would fail to attain salvation.

We can lose rewards but never, never that which God promises to keep for us, our salvation, John 10:27-29.

I agree again. One would have to throw away the gift.

We can never merit heaven. Here is a question for you and please share your answer with me please.
Q. Have you done enough good works to merit God justifying you?

We will not know this until we are judged.

None of these issues you bring, though valid topics for discussion, belong on this thread. I realize that you were invited by someone on this thread to post them, but really, each of them should have it’s own thread. I recommmend that you make one for each! Post them over in Apologetics, though.

 

[guanophore]

Its easy does what the priest teaches in line with God’s Word. We could go on and on about What Jesus said about the church not a pebble like Peter.

And how would you known that, since everyone interprets Scripture differently?

Let us do “go on” about what Jesus said about Peter. We could start with the fact that his new name, Cephas, does not mean “pebble”.

Let us not do it on this thread,though, since it is off topic here.

 

[guanophore]

Have you done enough good works to merit God justifying you?

So a person then is justified as the Bible says by faith Romans 5:1?

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. However, discussion of this is off topic in this thread.

Dead faith does not mean no faith at all. You say your car battery is dead does that mean you have no car battery at all? No. It means your battery is no working as intended. So it is the same with dead faith. This type of faith is not working the way God intended. It does not mean that there is no faith at all. James is writing to saved people telling then what to do with their faith and not how to get faith.

What use to the car is such a dead battery? Never mind, that is off topic here too…

Once saved always say is not Protestant, baptist, or Catholic in doctrine.

I can see your point here. Technically, it is heretical doctrine, but it did emanate from the Protestant Reformation, and the Baptist demomination has been thoroughly contaminated with it.

It is biblical. The Bible clearly teaches this fact. Read 1 John 5:13. Please read this verse in context starting at verse 11-17 and you will see that it says you can know for sure that when you die you will be in heaven.

Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not derive doctrine from a verse of scripture.

Purgatory is not a gift. It is a way of frightening people into being obedient. Love is a better way. Jesus says He has forgiven us all of our sin. That is good enought for me.

Well, we understand God’s love differently, don’t we? Catholics accept the Apostolic teaching that nothing unclean can enter heaven. God, in His mercy, cleanses us, even if by fire, to perfect us, to remove all dross. This is His love at work.

When we sin, fellowship not salvation is broken. 1 Jn. 1:8-10 tells us to confess our sins to God and then He will forgive us our sins. We do not need a priest because all true christians are believer priets today able to directly go directly to God for personal forgivenss of their sins.

This whole post is off topic inthis thread. Great points for discussion, though.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand why Protestants are so anti-verb. No one, anywhere said that we believe that it is through our own works that we will get to Heaven. No one here is trying to buy that stairway. We do good works because it’s what God wants us to do. Jesus said we are the light of the world, so we must shine before others that they must see your Good Deeds and glorify your Heavenly Father. What you’re arguing is basically nothing at all has to be done whatsoever for you to get into Heaven, and that’s absolutely false. You said yourself you have to believe. Believing is a WORK!!! Believing is an action that you have to perform so you can get to Heaven. Logically, your position holds no water, because you say that there’s nothing you can do to get into Heaven, but then you say you have to do something. You can’t have it both ways.

Actually, some heavily influenced by Calvanism and the predestination rhetoric say that one does not choose to believe,that God just saves those He wants to save, and our response is irrelevant. I did not understand this until I came to CAF, and learned that some of our Reformed brethren espouse the notion that people are saved first, and that is why they come to believe.

Um, I believe that the same Holy Spirit who inspired St Paul to write Eph. 2:8-9 also inspired verse 10. Check it out.
So repentance isn’t necessary for salvation?
The Scriptures also say that while believing is good, the demons also believe. There must be a little more to it, or else the demons who believe are also saved.

I just read on another thread a Christian who acknowledges that we must choose to put our faith in God to be saved, also espouse that it is not necessary to repent from sin in order to be saved. I am amazed. I cannot understand how someone can read the same scripture I do, and come up with this.

Sorry, I am off topic.

 

[RonaldH]

Again I ask, why do you deny what those in the early Church, that were handed on the Faith by the Apostles, taught?

Fair enough question and since you ask twice, I’ll respond. Brought up to respond, to the question, “Are you a christian?” My proud answer had always been, “I’m Catholic!” I was raised to believe, think and live in a manner reflecting that sure, there may be non-Catholic christians, but a Catholic is simply a step up, a grade higher if you may. Problem was simple, although I was an alter boy longer than any of my piers and I had a Aunt who was a nun and my grandmother who lived across the street from the church and tried to push me into the priesthood…despite that I did not have peace in my heart. Maybe someone can relate but sometimes defensive religious people arrogantly state to me the church was not the issue but my lack of faith. Sorry, when I was searching for that peace I FIRST went to my Catholic priest. That was while I was in the military (Air Force). He admitted to me he had no answer. I wandered in my soul (STILL believing the Catholic church was the true church), until I spoke to God and asked Him, “if you are real, I want to know you.” Immediately events occurred in my life that within two days a born again Christian (who was also raised staunch Catholic and now is a Baptist minister) came to me and lovingly shared with me from the Bible how to be born again. By faith I trusted Christ and found that peace that surpasses understanding and have the assurance that when I die I’m going to heaven. You can rationalize all you want but I know whom I have believed, and I am pursuaded that He is able to keep that which I committed to Him against that day both He died for me and when I trusted in that ONE sacrifice alone.

 

[ppasa316]

Actually, ppasa, the early Protestants acknowledged the inspiration of the Bible, but did not properly understand its nature. The Bible was taken to be, by the early Protestants, as the sole rule of faith, to posses supreme authority and to enjoy unrivalled pre-eminence, and inspiration and revelation were held to be one and the same thing. External proofs or criteria for the existence of inspired books of the Bible were rejected and only internal criteria based upon one’s personal experiences, religious feelings or sociological spiritual effects were substituted. This can be readily verified in the writings of and man made oral traditions of your spiritual fathers, i.e. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Beza. Since the Bible became regarded as having been dictated by the Holy Spirit, its human element became gradually neglected, and finally totally denied.

I question your epistemology. In other words, how do you know what you know? Are you sure that it is not just some warm fuzzy feeling?

I know what I know by Gods Word not a fuzzy feeling that you may have. Don’t respond again please with this kind of nonsense. If you are going to respond please let us go to scripture.

 

[Shannon9791]

Actually, some heavily influenced by Calvanism and the predestination rhetoric say that one does not choose to believe,that God just saves those He wants to save, and our response is irrelevant. I did not understand this until I came to CAF, and learned that some of our Reformed brethren espouse the notion that people are saved first, and that is why they come to believe.

I have spoken to some who feel that way. Kinda like putting the cart before the horse, no?

 

[juliamajor]

Fair enough question and since you ask twice, I’ll respond. Brought up to respond, to the question, “Are you a christian?” My proud answer had always been, “I’m Catholic!” I was raised to believe, think and live in a manner reflecting that sure, there may be non-Catholic christians, but a Catholic is simply a step up, a grade higher if you may. Problem was simple, although I was an alter boy longer than any of my piers and I had a Aunt who was a nun and my grandmother who lived across the street from the church and tried to push me into the priesthood…despite that I did not have peace in my heart. Maybe someone can relate but sometimes defensive religious people arrogantly state to me the church was not the issue but my lack of faith. Sorry, when I was searching for that peace I FIRST went to my Catholic priest. That was while I was in the military (Air Force). He admitted to me he had no answer. I wandered in my soul (STILL believing the Catholic church was the true church), until I spoke to God and asked Him, “if you are real, I want to know you.” Immediately events occurred in my life that within two days a born again Christian (who was also raised staunch Catholic and now is a Baptist minister) came to me and lovingly shared with me from the Bible how to be born again. By faith I trusted Christ and found that peace that surpasses understanding and have the assurance that when I die I’m going to heaven. You can rationalize all you want but I know whom I have believed, and I am pursuaded that He is able to keep that which I committed to Him against that day both He died for me and when I trusted in that ONE sacrifice alone.

Peace to you brother but are you implying Catholics can’t have peace that surpasses understanding? As for OSAS not every Protestant believes in that are they misguided, or demon spawned or pawns of the devil?
So Jesus having died paid the price- agreed but does that mean we don’t have to do anything else? No loving fellow man? No good works.none of the pesky"Go and sin no more "that Jesus was always saying? One sacrifice? one sacrifice on Golgotha. are you referring to the Sacrifice of the Mass?Golgotha happened once and for all time…If you were a Catholic you would know that. I’ve heard many a person come on site and claim they were Catholics but don’t even know the basics.So excuse me if I’m a doubting Thomas.
You do your own rationalizing but I also know what I believe and Who I believe…and no matter what you may think it’s the Same Jesus.

 

[Protestant101]

I am sure that your perceptions of it are not in harmony.
You are proceeding from a false assumption that the Apostolic Teachings not found in scripture must harmonize with your interpretation of scripture.

The fact that there are Teachings not found in the scripture, or in the case of Marian doctrines, found only implied in scripture, does not mean that they don’t harmonize with scripture. There must be complete harmony of scripture with Sacred Tradition, because they both come from the same Source.

Protestants believe in Purgatory too, they just don’t call it that. All who believe in the second coming accept that “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed”. Purgatory, or the state of being made fit for heaven, is outside of time.

Protestants also accept 1 Cor 3:12-15 …now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw - 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This describes purgatory. Purgation is a Latin word meaning “purified with fire”. So, you see, it is in scripture.

DL, Catholic Answers Forum is not a venue for you to spread lies about the Catholic faith. We are here to answer sincere questions about Catholicism. I have read too many of your posts to think that you are here to learn what the Catholic faith really teaches. I hope you this will change, but I can assure you , if you wish to continue posting here, you will have to refrain from posting such lies.

If you cannot exercise self control, and feel that you are compelled to publish such lies on the internet, you will have to find some where else to exercise your compulsion.

I have also watched your posts for many months too - you seem to gather strength and courage from such vitriolic accusations as what this quoted post contains. What you call “lies” might be lies to you - but they are not lies to many of us who post here. Many of us non-Catholics here to “compare and contrast” in a sincere way, seeking to know more truth; as the forum says for it’s purpose. Threatening people publicly is a ridiculous way to “answer questions.” You aren’t even a Moderator here; and you seem to feel so good about correcting Protestants about forum rules. For someone who constantly strays off topic in many forums like this; how can you even breathe a word to others about the “rules?”

AND PROTESTANTS CERTAINLY DO NOT BELIEVE IN “PURGATORY!!” You are the one spreading lies now…Get off your soapbox man!

 

[guanophore]

I have also watched your posts for many months too - you seem to gather strength and courage from such vitriolic accusations as what this quoted post contains.

Is that a bad thing?

What you call "lies" might be lies to you - but they are not lies to many of us who post here

Yes, I acknowledge that. I understand that many people have been given misinformation about the Cahtolic Church. I was given quite a bit of it myself!

I also recognize that many who post them are not the originators of them. I understand the are posting what they beleive to be true, and therefore, I do not accuse them of being liars themselves. I stand by what I said, though, such things are a deliberate attempt on the part of the originators to obfusticate the truth.

Many of us non-Catholics here to compare and contrast" in a sincere way, seeking to know more truth; as the forum says for it’s purpose. Threatening people publicly is a ridiculous way to “answer questions.”

I have no power to “threaten” anyone. I am pointing out that this is the wrong thread for the information. We all have a responsibility to help one another comply with the forum rules.

You aren’t even a Moderator here; and you seem to feel so good about correcting Protestants about forum rules.

I would rather here it from my fellow members (and believe me, I have!) than be reprimanded by a mod. Anyway, they are very busy, and can’t keep tabs on all the threads all the time. It is much more efficacious if we can help one another. I correct myself too.

For someone who constantly strays off topic in many forums like this; how can you even breathe a word to others about the “rules?”

Takes on to know one?

AND PROTESTANTS CERTAINLY DO NOT BELIEVE IN “PURGATORY!!” You are the one spreading lies now…Get off your soapbox man!

They don’t call it that, but I have yet to meet a Protestant that does not agree with us that nothing unclean can enter heaven. We all agree that any uncleanness in us when we die must be removed so that we can be pure before God. Latin Catholics call this purification by fire “purgatory”. But, we should take this up on another thread.

 

[RonaldH]

Peace to you brother but are you implying Catholics can’t have peace that surpasses understanding? As for OSAS not every Protestant believes in that are they misguided, or demon spawned or pawns of the devil?
So Jesus having died paid the price- agreed but does that mean we don’t have to do anything else? No loving fellow man? No good works.none of the pesky"Go and sin no more "that Jesus was always saying? One sacrifice? one sacrifice on Golgotha. are you referring to the Sacrifice of the Mass?Golgotha happened once and for all time…If you were a Catholic you would know that. I’ve heard many a person come on site and claim they were Catholics but don’t even know the basics.So excuse me if I’m a doubting Thomas.
You do your own rationalizing but I also know what I believe and Who I believe…and no matter what you may think it’s the Same Jesus.

Strange how people read into things. I didn’t imply anything. I simply related my personal experience. Concerning His peace, I suppose that is up to you and each individual to answer. I do not believe that you can impose confinement of the Holy Spirit and I also believe that people can get saved dispite belonging to a church that holds various untruths. As far as OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) I might venture to say most Protestants do not believe that. I do. Concerning salvation, a rich young man asked Jesus “what must I do to be saved?” The end result of that query was our Lord’s revelation that “with man it is impossible” Mark 10, the whole story is v. 17-29. You are correct, there is nothing else for man to do to gain salvation. That was His purpose, the very reason He came. To become our substitute. The real issue is appropriation. How does a human make that salvation their own? My opinion is that the Bible says it is through repentance and faith. Repentance of their sin and the road they are on and Faith towards the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe then that person is regenerated by the Spirit of God, born again, and a child of God. As such, it is eternal life, that is, never ending life. The nature of what occurs results in OSAS. I do believe in good works, I believe one who is saved and His child by grace alone should live their lives 100% committed to Him. It ought to be the attitude of the born again Christian though we know we will not be perfect and sinless until we shed this flesh that is born in corruption. I do not judge you nor who you believe in. If you want to share who that is and what it is I would give you my opinion on it, that is all.

 

[jam070406]

we will not be perfect and sinless until we shed this flesh that is born in corruption.

No, we will not be perfect till we are purged of sin and united to God.

 

[RonaldH]

No, we will not be perfect till we are purged of sin and united to God.

Maybe I should have just said after we depart this world.

 

[MrS]

Well, having been gone a few days, I see that the discussion still goes on, and closing in on 492 years since 1517, huh?

But what came to mind was this:

A number of posts from the Catholic perspective are coming from the same source, namely the teachings of the nearly 2000 year old Catholic Church. References noted are from the Early Church Fathers, the constant understanding on Doctrines and/or disciplines, and other Church documents.

The Scriptures, which we Catholics believe is the Book of the Catholic Church, given to and through the Church by the Holy Spirit, is also used to show either [1]an implied teaching [2] a direct teaching or [3] a teaching NOT refuted by Scripture - like infant Baptism.

A number of posts from the non-Catholic position have references coming from a much different point in history… namely the last 492 years. The Scriptures are quoted a verse here or there, most often from Paul, and not the Gospels themselves.

However…

what struck me was that three distinct faith communities…Baptist, Protestant, Adventist eagerly comment and approve of another’s post on heresies that have long been rejected and proven wrong by the Church.

On one hand I commend your persistence,
On another hand, I am saddened at the apparent lack of catechisis which allows a weak Catholic to leave and join a man made community.

And on even another hand
I can only imagine how may topics “essential to our salvation” the three of you disagree on. However, you all think that it is the **Holy Spirit **leads you away from the Catholic Church. HHmmmm.

.

 

[RonaldH]

Well, having been gone a few days, I see that the discussion still goes on, and closing in on 492 years since 1517, huh?

But what came to mind was this:

A number of posts from the Catholic perspective are coming from the same source, namely the teachings of the nearly 2000 year old Catholic Church. References noted are from the Early Church Fathers, the constant understanding on Doctrines and/or disciplines, and other Church documents.

The Scriptures, which we Catholics believe is the Book of the Catholic Church, given to and through the Church by the Holy Spirit, is also used to show either [1]an implied teaching [2] a direct teaching or [3] a teaching NOT refuted by Scripture - like infant Baptism.

A number of posts from the non-Catholic position have references coming from a much different point in history… namely the last 492 years. The Scriptures are quoted a verse here or there, most often from Paul, and not the Gospels themselves.

However…

what struck me was that three distinct faith communities…Baptist, Protestant, Adventist eagerly comment and approve of another’s post on heresies that have long been rejected and proven wrong by the Church.

On one hand I commend your persistence,
On another hand, I am saddened at the apparent lack of catechisis which allows a weak Catholic to leave and join a man made community.

And on even another hand
I can only imagine how may topics “essential to our salvation” the three of you disagree on. However, you all think that it is the Holy Spirit leads you away from the Catholic Church. HHmmmm.

.

Mr. S, you come here and make your statements as if your church was the only church in existence the first 15 centuries. Do you arrogantly believe that the Catholic Church was the only church for the first 15 centuries? I, born a Catholic reject your arrogance! Where you there during the Inquistion? Do you have a CLUE how many “Ana-Baptists” where murdered by Catholics before the Reformation? I assume you call me a “weak” Catholic. Weak or strong I was LOST, as any and every man without personal faith in Christ and Christ alone! Do you have a clue how ignorant you come across? I assume you as other well intended Catholics trust in your church, Mary, Eucharist, Baptism, Confession, the Stations of the Cross, your Rosary, Holy Water, Your Sacraments and basically how supremely “good” you think you are to gain entrance into heaven. I love Catholic people and enjoy their friendship and love daily, your arrogance is a shame to all that Christ ever attempted to do in changing the hearts of man!