John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[guanophore]

Where in Scripture does the Spirit teach that God makes people Catholic? (Catholic with a capital “C”).

Where in Scripture do any of the writers refer to those who oppose the body of Christ as anti-Catholic?

Where in Scripture is it stated that in order to be saved one must cross the Tiber?

You seem to be suffering under the erroenous expectation that everything pertaining to the faith can be found in scripture.

The Church Christ founded is Catholic,and He only founded One Church. During the Protestant Reformation, on the the far side of the Tiber River, European Catholics abandoned the One Church founded by Christ and formed their own churches, based upon theologies that departed from what Christ taught. If you think they were not anti- Catholic, I suggest you read their writings. Your current pastor embodies their sentiments towards Catholics, hence, the thread topic.

 

[guanophore]

And the Catholic refers much to unwritten oral traditions, traditions for which they cannot provide an accurate list telling us which apostle didn’t write which unwritten tradition, for their innovations.

It would be impossible to find any Apostolic Tradition that has not been written about by this time.

You are right, about the list, though. The Sacred Traditions were committed to us by the Apostles as a perspective on life, a way of being in the world. In the NT, it is called “The Way”. Such lifestyles do not easily lend themselves to “lists”.

It is considered a modern innovation to depart from what the Aposltes believed and taught, and Reformed theology is one of those modern innovations.

Anyone taking a few moments to read what Peter says in context will see that MrS’s statement is completely false.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

Amazing—MrS understands the self-claimed authority of the office of apostle as it resides in his Pope, but MrS hasn’t clue with respect to the authority of the office of apostle as it resides in the apostle Paul, himself.

The authority given to the Apostles is not “self proclaimed”. I do realize that Paul did make some bluster about proclaiming himself, but his authority, along with all of the Apostles, came from Christ. As did the authority to appoint successors to carry on their duties. One would think, if Jesus were not such a weakling He would have corrected the Church before she fell into such error as the Apostolic Succession. I mean, He seemed to have enough wherewithal to convince Peter that the Gentiles should enter the Church. I wonder what happened to His divine powers,that when the Apostles appointed successors for themselves, and passed on their authority to them, He could not intervene to save His Church?

And MrS can say this with authority because he’s attended every Sunday service that’s ever been conducted in every non-Catholic Church in the entire world.

Perhaps enough to see a pattern. It is curious that your personal experience with ex-Catholics seems to carry merit, but ours does not.

(FYI, MrS—early this year, our pastor finished preaching through the Gospel of Luke. With the exception of few excursions elsewhere in scripture, he preached through Luke each Sunday. He began doing that in early in 1998, and finished early 2009—in case you can’t do the math, that’s 11 years of Sundays on the Gospel of Luke.)

Great! I hope you learned something.

 

[guanophore]

Respecfully, that doesn’t answer my question.

I’ll post it again:My question is specific:And where in Scripture do we find this figure of speech “Crossing the Tiber?”

You seem to be laboring under the common misunderstanding that everything that is to be believed by Christians can be found in the Bible. On the contrary, most of the heresies are not included in Scripture.

Where do we find Luther’s 95 Theses and Calvin’s Institutes?

North of the Tiber.

This expression is not found in scripture because, like most other heresies, these proliferated after the NT was written.

It doesn’t say which books of Scripture are inspired; it says “all Scripture is inspired.”

Right. And now was it determined which books those were? Of the 400+ texts floating around, claiming to be inspired, or used in Church, how was the decision made which ones belonged in the NT?

 

[guanophore]

Assumes, without support, that people who leave the CC do so because they don’t understand Church teaching.

If their understanding of CAtholicism is similar to yours, as represented on this thread,then I think that is support enough!

Anyway, you seem to think that none of us have left the Church, or converted following misunderstanding Catholicism.

You continue to assume the reason given by Cavin is the only reason people leave the Church.

No, I know better. It does apply, though, to the vast majority. I would suggest a simple survey for you, but since your own understanding of Catholic doctrine is so meagre, you would not be able to conduct the research adequately.

No one’s stopping you from coming to California and talking to ex-Catholics from my church.

I am on it right now!

With your just added qualification, you’ve changed the meaning of your statement.

Actually, it was not my statement. But, there are some very well educated persons who are imbeciles when it comes to matters of faith.

Luther had a masters in theology, by current standards, that ThM would be a doctorate degree, he was an Augustinian monk, and he taught theology as well. Please explain how that makes Luther not educated in his Catholic Faith.

I confess that I cannot. I cannot imagine how someone could study so much for so long, and still not “get it”. However, I do know it happens. He is not the only one who experienced this. His failure may be due to certain personality and psychological characteristics that were blockages.

In the retrospect of whom?

Historians, Theologians, psychiatrist and psychologists etc., etc.

Please explain how it would immoral for EWTN to air a television program conducting interviews with Catholics exiting the Church, but it’s not immoral for them to air a television program conducting interviews with Protestants entering the Church?

EWTN has a commitment not to air anything that is contrary to the teaching if the Church. The Catholic Church teachies that it is immoral to focus upon and promote wrongdoing of any kind.

Phil 4:8-9
8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.

Promoting separation and division in the body of Christ is a moral evil. It is contrary to what we have learned and received from the Aposltes. The Apostles taught that the Body of Christ is One,and that Jesus wants unity among us.

Dividing the Body asunder is diabolical, this is the meaning of the word diabolical - forcible separations.

 

[Tomster]

You use some big words, it’s nice to see at least some type of historical recognition by a catholic to a pre-Luther linage to a Christian church other than their own. I think most of what you said concerning their beliefs were accurate and commend you for the post!

Thanks for the kudos Ronald H. It is refreshing to hear from a professed Baptist that you admit that the Baptist sect finds it’s roots in the pre-Reformation heresies which the true Church condemned.

Now if Howie will take his blinders off . . . . :hey_bud:

 

[denwiles]

All well and good Dennis. Not the topic of the thread, but their are many threads, open to everyone, which discuss Peter, rock, Church etc.

If your interpretation, or this interpretation of someone which you have bought into is correct,…

Then all the words in the Gospels, of Jesus Himself, become suspect… especially those words when He gives instructions, and powers, and direction ONLY to Peter or Peter and the Apostles.

His plan is NOT to let every and any man be the teacher. And it is certainly not His plan to let any man or woman teach lies. Jesus is the Truth. That is what the Catholic Church has been defending for 2000 years.

It is the Office of Peter which must be filled (read a good commentary on the “keys” in Matt 16)
It is this office to which Jesus instructs “… feed My sheep, tend My flock, feed My sheep…”

Your suggestion is that the sheep should or could tend to themselves.,… no need for a Good Shepherd,… and no need for the plans He put in place to see His Church grow until He returns.



By the way, Protestants, on the whole adapt to a strange way to “teach”

1] They use Paul as the major reference for all their innovations
2] It is Paul’s writings which we told are hard to understand (by Peter)
3] With the exception of Paul’s quoting Jesus’ words on the importance of His Real Presence, Paul does not quote Jesus
4] Thus the protestant rarely will explore the Gospels and study Jesus, other than to quote a verse, say it inspires, and then just move on.

That is a major difference in Catholicism and all the faith communities.

Catholicism is the ONLY Church Jesus built on Peter the Kephas’ authority.

Thus all faith communities are really not churches with respect to the way Christ used the word (and we know He introduced the word for the first time in Matt 16).

So your above statement is good. Unless one is 'teaching" Jesus, he man not be teaching Truth. Same as “…call no man father…” Yet Scripture, the Word of God, is clear in calling Abraham and others Father… for they are our Fathers in Faith, just as the ministerial priesthood established by Jesus.

anyway… back to the topic.

.
.

Thank you for miss quoting me. Typical!!! And for all the really Loving People that I have found here. Where is the Love??? Many of you are real smart, and I say that as a compliment, but it seem as though their is a hatred about many people these days. For some of you Paul founded many churches, and openly rebuked Peter. So who was the real leader? Christ. Didn’t Jesus teach us that the greatest is the servant and not to be like the Gentiles and Lord over each other. Well the Catholic Church is set up opposite to what Jesus taught. And you have made it quite clear that those outside of the Catholic Church are below you and many if not most think that Protestants are not true Christians. By the Way I am not a Protestant. I just believe in the truth. The truth is all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Not all who join the Catholic Church, wich I am a part of. I guess my Priest who is Baptised in the Holy Spirit taught me well. The control is in Gods hands and not yours. This might not be the place to post. But I have said what the Lord told me to say. Remember this the Blood of Jesus saves all completly and my friend no false doctrine can nor will ever change that. And when you get to Heaven the only thing you will bost about according to the Bible is Christ. “No more Hey I’m a Catholic, the only true church” People that have put their confidence in the Lord are not heritics, be careful attacking Gods people.

 

[denwiles]

Thank you for miss quoting me. Typical!!! And for all the really Loving People that I have found here. Where is the Love??? Many of you are real smart, and I say that as a compliment, but it seem as though their is a hatred about many people these days. For some of you Paul founded many churches, and openly rebuked Peter. So who was the real leader? Christ. Didn’t Jesus teach us that the greatest is the servant and not to be like the Gentiles and Lord over each other. Well the Catholic Church is set up opposite to what Jesus taught. And you have made it quite clear that those outside of the Catholic Church are below you and many if not most think that Protestants are not true Christians. By the Way I am not a Protestant. I just believe in the truth. The truth is all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Not all who join the Catholic Church, wich I am a part of. I guess my Priest who is Baptised in the Holy Spirit taught me well. The control is in Gods hands and not yours. This might not be the place to post. But I have said what the Lord told me to say. Remember this the Blood of Jesus saves all completly and my friend no false doctrine can nor will ever change that. And when you get to Heaven the only thing you will bost about according to the Bible is Christ. “No more Hey I’m a Catholic, the only true church” People that have put their confidence in the Lord are not heritics, be careful attacking Gods people.

To re quote your quote. Of course they use Paul-His epistles make up 3 forths of the new Testement. Jesus not Paul said in John 6 “the works of God are to believe in the one in whom he sent.” And “they who come to me will never go hungry and they that believe in me will never go thirsty” and of course John 3:16 all who believe. Why do you reject what paul said about salvation? Its a gift? If you work for it then God is obligated to pay you. But it is a gift. Every century since 360 A. D. if some didn’t believe in the Catholic church they died. Jesus said if you are angry with your brother it is the same as murder. People still kill just in a diffrent way. My friend that is not Love but hatred. The disciples saw a man casting out Demons and rebuked him, but Jesus rebuked the Dicsiples and said "no one for us CAN BE AGAINST US. Believe me persecution will come to this world and those who don’t believe in God will kill all Christians according to the Bible. You will be glad to run into a Protestent in those days. No more fighting I will not respond to this foolishness any longer.

 

[RonaldH]

Alll educated Catholics understand that there were many heresies rampant before those of the Reformation splintered the Church.

There may have been many “heresies” but the doctrines you trace that Baptist today hold to are not! I have not made a single post concerning multitude heresies of the CC yet you seem to enjoy the position of judge or at least doing so in the name of your church

 

[MrS]

To re quote your quote. Of course they use Paul-His epistles make up 3 forths of the new Testement. Jesus not Paul said in John 6 “the works of God are to believe in the one in whom he sent.” And “they who come to me will never go hungry and they that believe in me will never go thirsty” and of course John 3:16 all who believe. Why do you reject what paul said about salvation? Its a gift? If you work for it then God is obligated to pay you. But it is a gift. Every century since 360 A. D. if some didn’t believe in the Catholic church they died. Jesus said if you are angry with your brother it is the same as murder. People still kill just in a diffrent way. My friend that is not Love but hatred. The disciples saw a man casting out Demons and rebuked him, but Jesus rebuked the Dicsiples and said "no one for us CAN BE AGAINST US. Believe me persecution will come to this world and those who don’t believe in God will kill all Christians according to the Bible. You will be glad to run into a Protestent in those days. No more fighting I will not respond to this foolishness any longer.

Really???

Luke wrote MORE than Paul - his Gospel, and Acts. So I guess Luke wrote more than three fourths.

What Paul wrote about salvation is absolutely correct, What you think he wrote is absolutely false and misleading. That will be another thread.

/

 

[Howie01]

guanophore:

You seem to be suffering under the erroenous expectation that everything pertaining to the faith can be found in scripture.

A non sequitur as it does not the address the question asked.

guanophore:

The Church Christ founded is Catholic,and He only founded One Church. During the Protestant Reformation, on the the far side of the Tiber River, European Catholics abandoned the One Church founded by Christ and formed their own churches, based upon theologies that departed from what Christ taught. If you think they were not anti- Catholic, I suggest you read their writings. Your current pastor embodies their sentiments towards Catholics, hence, the thread topic.

Guanophore, Catholics on this thread have been very vocal concerning the wickedness inherent in Catholics doing things that are not in accordance with “official Church teaching.”

Will you point me to the “official Church teaching,” encouraging today’s faithful Catholics to address those the Church calls “Christians,” and “Separated Brethren” as Anti-Catholics?

If you can’t show me “official Church teaching” encouraging this, will you explain to me why Catholics (yourself included) engage in such wickedness?

guanophore:

You are right, about the list, though.

Yes I am.

guanophore:

The Sacred Traditions were committed to us by the Apostles as a perspective on life, a way of being in the world. In the NT, it is called “The Way”. Such lifestyles do not easily lend themselves to “lists”.

Can you give a list of the 10 commandments, guanophore?

How about a list of the sacraments?

Twelve stations of the cross?

guanophore:

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

We do indeed, guanophore.

I read it in context; you don’t.

guanophore:

The authority given to the Apostles is not “self proclaimed”.

No, it’s not, but IMO, and the O of many others, the Pope’s is.

guanophore:

Perhaps enough to see a pattern.

You’re not MrS, so how do you know what his experience is?

guanophore:

It is curious that your personal experience with ex-Catholics seems to carry merit, but ours does not.

I’ve never discounted your experience with ex-Catholics.

What I object to is your attempt to establish a singular universal “truth,” based upon the experience of guanophore leaving the CC as the norm for all of those leaving the CC. That’s absurd.
gaunophore:

You seem to be laboring under the common misunderstanding that everything that is to be believed by Christians can be found in the Bible. On the contrary, most of the heresies are not included in Scripture.

Where do we find Luther’s 95 Theses and Calvin’s Institutes?

North of the Tiber.

This expression is not found in scripture because, like most other heresies, these proliferated after the NT was written.

IOW, you can’t support from Scripture that “crossing the Tiber,” is a necessity for salvation; is that correct?

guanophore:

Anyway, you seem to think that none of us have left the Church, or converted following misunderstanding Catholicism.

I’ve never denied that, guanophore?

Again, what I object to is your attempt to establish a singular universal “truth,” based upon the experience of guanophore leaving the CC as the norm for all of those leaving the CC. That’s absurd.

guanophore:

No, I know better. It does apply, though, to the vast majority.

That’s a very vague answer, and, at the very least, it requires that you’ve personally interviewed a vaster majority than the vast majority to which you claim your statement applies.

guanophore:

I would suggest a simple survey for you, but since your own understanding of Catholic doctrine is so meagre, you would not be able to conduct the research adequately.

It seems you’ve forgotten my telling you that I speak with both present, and former Catholics regularly.

guanophore:

Actually, it was not my statement.

If they had that much attention from an educated Catholic, they would never leave.

Please explain how the above statement is not your statement, guanophore?

guanophore:

I confess that I cannot.

Of course you can’t, guanophore.

It’s my opinion that Luther took more knowledge and understanding of Catholicism to his grave than most Catholics will take to theirs.

guanophore:

EWTN has a commitment not to air anything that is contrary to the teaching if the Church. The Catholic Church teachies that it is immoral to focus upon and promote wrongdoing of any kind.

Dividing the Body asunder is diabolical, this is the meaning of the word diabolical - forcible separations.

Guanophore, you understand exit interviews to be “forcible separations;” consistency in your argument, then, demands that you understand entrance interviews to be “forcible unions.”

Please explain how “forcible separations” are “immoral,” but “forcible unions,” are not?

Also, please cite and link the dictionary that defines “diabolical” as “forcible separation.”

 

[MrS]

Again, and again, and again

Poor Howie needs to find everything clear (in his own mind) in Scripture or else …
(unless a MacArthur gives his stamp of approval.)

Kinda like someone saying if their definition of a word is not in Websters, or if they disagree with the definition,… then the problem is with the “other guy” who disagrees with him.

Howie… you would have been so frustrated for the 400 years after Christ…

no Bible, no New Testament… just lots and lots of letters.

oh, wait… the Holy Spirit would have led Howie to the correct and incorrect letters.

.

 

[guanophore]

Where is the Love?????

It is not loving to allow sincere people to persist in error and fail to say anything

Didn't Jesus teach us that the greatest is the servant and not to be like the Gentiles and Lord over each other.  Well the Catholic Church is set up opposite to what Jesus taught.

Please explain what this means? Don’t you think that Peter was a very humble man (at least toward the end of life?). Do you think Pope Benedict is an arrogant man, who holds himself above others?

And you have made it quite clear that those outside of the Catholic Church are below you and many if not most think that Protestants are not true Christians.

Please explain how you see this. How can one person be “below” another? Are we all not beggars, looking for the same Bread?

It is true that there are many who think they are Christian but are not. Some of them were baptized Catholic. He will say to them "Why do you call me ‘Lord’, yet do not the things that I say?

 By the Way I am not a Protestant.  I just believe in the truth.  The truth is all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  Not all who join the Catholic Church, wich I am a part of.

For someone who is not Protestant, you sure do make a lot of Protestant statements.

I guess my Priest who is Baptised in the Holy Spirit taught me well. Thqe control is in Gods hands and not yours. This might not be the place to post. But I have said what the Lord told me to say. Remember this the Blood of Jesus saves all completly and my friend no false doctrine can nor will ever change that. And when you get to Heaven the only thing you will bost about according to the Bible is Christ. “No more Hey I’m a Catholic, the only true church” People that have put their confidence in the Lord are not heritics, be careful attacking Gods people.

I agree with you, the vast majority of those who have put their trust in God are not heretics. In order to qualify for the title “heretic” one must have first embraced the Truth, then willfully and knowingly departed from it. Most evangelicals today were never taught the Truth, especially those who have posted on this thread, and the one about whom the thread topic is. The fact is that they have quite unwittingly empbraced heretical doctrines, not knowing any better. Only those who originated those doctrines, such as John Calvin, can be charged with heresy.

 

[RonaldH]

Thanks for the kudos Ronald H. It is refreshing to hear from a professed Baptist that you admit that the Baptist sect finds it’s roots in the pre-Reformation heresies which the true Church condemned.

Now if Howie will take his blinders off . . . . :hey_bud:

Being raised CATHOLIC I am offended by the calous way you renounce people of other beliefs Tomster. Do you EVER feel any accountability to your words or do you actually enjoy your slanderous statements? I was baptised Catholic, I was educated in a ***Catholic school and was confirmed Catholic and alter boy and I know your church probably better than you! I have never disrespected you, you speak proudly about your church, where is your love of Christ? I never *** once “admitted” to “heresies” as you state. I said I held to those doctrines to baptise babies is wrong, to sprinkle is not Biblical, to baptise one prior to a confession of faith is anti-biblical. I am a re-baptised believer in Jesus Christ, born again by faith alone in Him who died for me! I do not have the freedom on this site to tell of heresies of the CC, for we both know who runs this website. Howie does not have binders on, I read these posts, he has been very gracious and extremely long-suffering with many of yours and other’s slanderous statements. Jesus Christ said, "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken" Matthew 12:36

You tell how it offends you that I would call you the Roman Church with disrespect to my acceptance of your church’s claim to be “Catholic” and you slander my church calling it a “sect”. For one who “thinks” his way is right your spirit does not display much godliness.

 

[guanophore]

Of course they use Paul-His epistles make up 3 forths of the new Testement.

The problem comes from deriving theology by distilling the epistles of Paul.

Jesus not Paul said in John 6 “the works of God are to believe in the one in whom he sent.” And “they who come to me will never go hungry and they that believe in me will never go thirsty” and of course John 3:16 all who believe. Why do you reject what paul said about salvation?

I don’t understand the question. No one here rejects what Paul says about salvation.

Its a gift? If you work for it then God is obligated to pay you. But it is a gift.

This has been the constant teaching of the Catholic Church.

Every century since 360 A. D. if some didn’t believe in the Catholic church they died.

I suppose there is some truth to this, since there is no salvation outside the Church. However, somehow, I think that is not what you mean.

:Jesus said if you are angry with your brother it is the same as murder. People still kill just in a diffrent way. My friend that is not Love but hatred. The disciples saw a man casting out Demons and rebuked him, but Jesus rebuked the Dicsiples and said "no one for us CAN BE AGAINST US. Believe me persecution will come to this world and those who don’t believe in God will kill all Christians according to the Bible. You will be glad to run into a Protestent in those days. No more fighting I will not respond to this foolishness any longer.

Why are you here, Dennis? Something motivated you to come to CAF. Did you think you would find something here other than Catholicism?

 

[Howie01]

MrS:

Howie… you would have been so frustrated for the 400 years after Christ…

no Bible, no New Testament… just lots and lots of letters.

MrS, the man that you allege to be the first pope of your present day church understood that what he and his equals were writing was scripture, and those writings were present in the churches from the time of their “penning,” and it’s from those writings that the faithful were taught, and the OT writings were available as well.

To posit that the church had no scriptures for 400 years is absurd.

 

[guanophore]

There may have been many “heresies” but the doctrines you trace that Baptist today hold to are not! I have not made a single post concerning multitude heresies of the CC yet you seem to enjoy the position of judge or at least doing so in the name of your church

I am sure you believe they are not. I believed that too when I was a practicing Baptist!

You are welcome to post the multitude of heresies of the CC… I recommend you do it over in apologetics, though,as it is a more appropriate forum for that.

I do not have “postition of judge”. What I have is an understanding of what the Aposotles believed and taught, supplemented by an education on some of the ways that modern ecclesial communites have departed from them.

Let me reiterate, modern evangelicals, Baptists, Reformed, etc. are not to be charged with the sin of heresy for espousing heretical views. Most of them don’t know anything else, and have been brought up, steeped in these heresies. For them, it is the only right way to believe. They cannot qualify as heretics, never having known the truth.

It is my duty,however, to recognize heretical teachings, and respond to them. This is not a judgement on anyone, but a discernment about right doctrine. As has been pointed out, many of us here are “indoctrinated”. We are steeped in the Traditions of the Apostles, rather than the Reformers,and that is why our beliefs seem so different. The Reformers departed significantly from what the Apostles believed and taught, to the point where the adherants of these doctrines no longer recognize the truth.

 

[guanophore]

Being raised CATHOLIC I am offended by the calous way you renounce people of other beliefs Tomster. Do you EVER feel any accountability to your words or do you actually enjoy your slanderous statements? I was baptised Catholic, I was educated in a ***Catholic ***school and was confirmed Catholic and alter boy and I know your church probably better than you! I have never disrespected you, you speak proudly about your church, where is your love of Christ? I ***never *** once “admitted” to “heresies” as you state.

I thought he was being factious? I did not think you admitted to it either.

In repudiating the heretical teachings espoused by the Baptist communion, we are not trying to personal insult anyone, including Baptists. However, to act as if they are not emnating from early heresies would be disingenuous.

I said I held to those ***doctrines*** to baptise babies is wrong, to sprinkle is not Biblical, to baptise one prior to a confession of faith is anti-biblical.  I am a re-baptised believer in Jesus Christ, born again by faith alone in Him who died for me!  I do not have the freedom on this site to tell of heresies of the CC, for we both know who runs this website.

Sure you do! Just do it over in apologetics. You will have to try to do it with civility, though, you are right, it is a Catholic website. However, we exist for these kinds of rants, so have at it!

Howie does not have binders on, I read these posts, he has been very gracious and extremely long-suffering with many of yours and other’s slanderous statements.

I dunno. There is a streak of cynicism running through all his posts. However, you are probably right. If he was not resraining himself,the anti-catholic cauldron in his soul would have bubbled over by now.

You tell how it offends you that I would call you the Roman Church with disrespect to my acceptance of your church’s claim to be “Catholic” and you slander my church calling it a “sect”. For one who “thinks” his way is right your spirit does not display much godliness.

Well, he is right. The Catholic Church is not “Roman”. If you knew as much as you thought, you would realize this. Doubtless you never served at a Divine Liturgy.

 

[guanophore]

MrS, the man that you allege to be the first pope of your present day church understood that what he and his equals were writing was scripture, and those writings were present in the churches from the time of their “penning,” and it’s from those writings that the faithful were taught, and the OT writings were available as well.

To posit that the church had no scriptures for 400 years is absurd.

I agree with you, except that, although the scriptures were considered profitable for teaching, the foundation of the teachings was that which was committed to the Apostles. It was from this Sacred Tradition that the Bible was formed. Up until 382, there were frequent teachings from non-canonical sources as well, which ceased after that time (except for the heretics).

 

[guanophore]

It does not address the question.

It does address the question asked, at the most fundamental level. It addresses the faulty premise upon which the question was based.

Will you point me to the “official Church teaching,” encouraging today’s faithful Catholics to address those the Church calls “Christians,” and “Separated Brethren” as Anti-Catholics?

Not all of our separated brethren are anti catholics. John MacArthur, and those who espouse his views would fall under this category.

If you can’t show me “official Church teaching” encouraging this, will you explain to me why Catholics (yourself included) engage in such wickedness?

I would think that y’all would be proud that you are anti-Catholic. How is that a wickedness? Don’t you believe that is is righteous for you to oppose Catholicism? IT seems reading MacArthur’s material, that he certainly believes what he is doing is righteous. You have indicated that pulling Catholics “out” of the Church and "into " the Truth as you know it is a righteous deed. Where is the wickedness?

Can you give a list of the 10 commandments, guanophore?
How about a list of the sacraments? Twelve stations of the cross?

I guess what you are trying to say is that you think that the way of life passed on to us by the Apostles ought to somehow be reduced to a list? Do you think that any of these things you have noted here describe the lifestyle of the Christian?

Jesus did not teach in lists, and neither did the Apostles.

We do indeed, guanophore.

I read it in context; you don’t.

No, it’s not, but IMO, and the O of many others, the Pope’s is.

Is that not because you deny the Apostolic Succession?

You’re not MrS, so how do you know what his experience is?

I read the posts.

I’ve never discounted your experience with ex-Catholics.

Actually, you have. You have discounted my experience as an ex catholic as well.

What I object to is your attempt to establish a singular universal “truth,” based upon the experience of guanophore leaving the CC as the norm for all of those leaving the CC. That’s absurd.

I agree, that is absurd. Truth is not based upon me, or the forum, or those that leave the CC. Truth is defined by Christ, and falling away from the truth are those that walk away from Him.

IOW, you can’t support from Scripture that “crossing the Tiber,” is a necessity for salvation; is that correct?

LOL

No more than I can support from scripture that everything necessary to salvation is found in the scripture.

I’ve never denied that, guanophore?

Actually, you have.

That’s a very vague answer, and, at the very least, it requires that you’ve personally interviewed a vaster majority than the vast majority to which you claim your statement applies.

Yes.

It seems you’ve forgotten my telling you that I speak with both present, and former Catholics regularly.

Not at all! In fact, it was that statement upon which I based my assessment of their knowledge of the faith.

Please explain how the above statement is not your statement, guanophore?

that was not the statement to I was responding. It was one made by MrS.

It’s my opinion that Luther took more knowledge and understanding of Catholicism to his grave than most Catholics will take to theirs.

Wow. Well, I hope that their simple faith helps them more than all his knowledge seemed to help him, because he seemed very lost, especially at edge of his grave.

Shortly before his death, he said to his wife, “I’m like a ripe stool and the world’s like a gigantic anus, and we’re about to let go of each other.” - Martin Luther

Such a prophetic word may be the most truthful of all his life. Perhaps, on the edge of his grave, he finally understood the truth?

Guanophore, you understand exit interviews to be “forcible separations;” consistency in your argument, then, demands that you understand entrance interviews to be “forcible unions.”

Perhaps I did not express myself well. I did not say the interviews would be a forcible separation. I think I said televising such a thing would be a moral evil. It would be a way of participating in other mens sins, which the Apostles strictly forbid. When I use the term “forcible separation” I am referring to the multiple fractures in the Body of Christ. Jesus wants unity in HIs body. To the extent that there are fractures, separation has occurred, in most cases quite forcibly. If you have read the history of the reformation, I think you will agree with this.

Encouragement of these fractions and separations is contrary to the will of God.

Please explain how “forcible separations” are “immoral,” but “forcible unions,” are not?

I think both are immoral. But, I don’t think those that are on EWTN in the “coming home” program are being forcibly united. I think, through much study and prayer, they chose to come home. That is what happened to me too.

Showcasing and drawing attention to that which is divisive is not helpful. Holding up as a model divisive behavior is immoral.

Also, please cite and link the dictionary that defines “diabolical” as “forcible separation.”

I am not aware of any ancient language dictionaries online that I can link. This is an old Latin transliteration of diabolokos.

 

[Howie01]

guanophore:

On the contrary, most of the heresies are not included in Scripture.

Where do we find Luther’s 95 Theses and Calvin’s Institutes?

North of the Tiber.

This expression is not found in scripture because, like most other heresies, these proliferated after the NT was written.

Another non sequitur that fails to answer the question asked.

However…I’ve been reading your response over and over, and over and over again, and it’s truly a remarkable statement you make.

You’re saying that the phrase “crossing the Tiber” is heretical, and that every expression not found in scripture, but proliferated after the NT was written is heretical.

Congratulations, guanophore, you’ve brought down all of Catholicism all by yourself.