John MacArthur's ironic comment of the day

[SHW]

what is your name @ that site? i went there but didn’t know how to find your comments…

It is SHW. My post is “way down under” in the “Response” section which is below the original article and it is also below the section called "Related Articles. Thanks for checking it out.

 

[guanophore]

“Fallen from grace,” “severed from Christ,” and “Christ is of no benefit to you,” does not mean they lost their salvation (they never had it).

I agree with you here, Moon. Both of these things are true. The Galations were “saved” when they were baptized (clothed with Christ in grace), and at the time the letter is written, they were in danger of cutting themselves off from the vine of life in Christ to which they had been grafted in baptism. In a sense, none of us “has” salvation until we have finished working it out here on earth,and enter the glory that has been prepared for us in heaven. As the wise Apostle teaches:

Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

The Apostle show us what we call the sin of “presumption”, which is considering that we have already made salvation our own, instead of focusing on our call. The notion that someone is already “saved” in this life is what Paul considers immature thinking.

It means, as a church, they lost the true gospel of Divine grace Paul originally delivered to them for salvation. Those churches abandoned the gospel (good news) of the gift of salvation “by grace through faith” in Christ alone. They adopted a false gospel, one of “faith” (but not a true faith in Christ) PLUS works (true faith accepts only Christ’s work).

No, Moon, he is not writing to them corporately, but as individuals within the body of Christ.

Gal 5:2-4
2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Specifically to those who are considering receiving circumcision. He is speaking to “every man who receives circumcision”, not to the Church as a whole. Subsequently he advises:

Gal 6:1-2
6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

If the whole church had fallen, obviously there would be no one left to restore the fallen in gentleness, would there?

Apostasy (loss/abandonment of the true gospel) had set in. As leaven can only produce leavened bread, so apostasy can only produce apostates. No one can be saved through an apostate gospel.

Perhaps you don’t realize that apostasy means falling away from the faith. In order to do this, one must have first been attached to, or embraced the “true gospel”. It is not the gospel that is “apostate” but the persons. One cannot be “cut off” until one is first attached. One cannot fall from or abandon that which he did not attain. Christ had already become an advantage to these believers. Paul writes of them that they “began with faith”.

 Galatia was a region and Paul was addressing all the churches within that region.  Some of those churches had accepted a "*different*" gospel, contrary to the one Paul had preached to them, a distortion of the original, and, said Paul, was in fact *no gospel at all* (see Gal. 1:1-6).

I do agree that the false gospel cannot save. God can save whoever he wants, however he likes, though, in spite of falsehood.

That distorted “gospel” was one of “faith” PLUS works. Hence, they had “fallen from grace” (i.e., the grace that was originally preached to them by Paul and his companions); hence, they were “severed from Christ” because they were trying to be saved through works rather than through faith in Christ’s, once for all, sacrificial work on the cross - alone.

You have a distorted understanding of the position of works in salvation, Moon. You might want to consider not stopping at v. 9 when you read Eph. 8-9.

“Christ was of no benefit to them.” Their false gospel actually circumvented the cross and the present High Priestly work of the resurrected, glorified Christ (Heb. 7:25).

The false gospel did not belong to the Galatians, Moon. it was not “theirs”. It was pandered to them by those under the Law.

To the contrary, I accept Pauline theology.

It has often seemed to me that persons steeped in Reformed Tradition are actually “Paulists”. They derive soteriololgy exclusively from the Pauline Epistles, and disregard most of the remainder of the NT. I had one very expert Paulist Theologian (who called himself “Reformed” on here tell me that Jesus did not have much of anything to say about salvation, and that it was the writings of Paul that organized the doctrine of salvation comprehensively. It sure was an eye opener for me!

 

[guanophore]

G4 actually has not done the “fine job” you say he has in 'refuting" anything in his last few posts. He has provided a fine series of rationalizations; at the expense of Bible doctrine; and Bible truth. His failure to admit that his own church commonly used the term “Roman Catholic” in a non-critical way is a real stretch at best for “truth.” The rest of his musings and criticisms follow suit. Your derogatory comments are no better.

One of the fallacies of SS is that there is such a thing as “bible doctrine” and “bible truth”. In fact, the bible does not create doctrine, persons do that. The Apostles considered themselves to be Jesus’ repository of “sound doctrine”, and wrote by way of confirming what they taught. With the coming of the tradition of sola scriptura, men created (and continue to create) various and sundry doctrines from reading the bible that they call “bible doctrine”. Each generation seems to depart further and further from apostolic teaching. There is on “bible Christian” on here now that claims the baptism related to salvation has nothing to do with water. He is not the first to make that claim here, either. Amazing. The Apostles would not recognize the vast majority of what masquerades as “bible doctrine” and “bible truth” today.

 

[SHW]

Paul’s letter to the Galatian churches has nothing to do with sin and the loss of one’s salvation.

Perhaps you should add a few fruits and vegetables to your diet of green cheese there on the moon. It may help you to have clearer thinking.

Apostasy: an abandoning of what one has believed in, as a faith, cause, or principles

In order to apostatize from the Christian “faith,” a person must first believe in the Christian “faith.” A person is made a disciple of Christ (a Christian) through Baptism. [Matthew 28:19] Baptism justifies us and sanctifies us. [1 Corinthians 6:11] Baptism is what “saves” us from the consequences of Adam’s sin and reconciles us to God and it gives us the hope of eternal life, but not the guarantee of eternal life. [Titus 3:7]

If a person “believes in” the Christian faith, then he imitates/obeys Christ, his namesake, and he therefore abides/remains in Christ until death.

Some of the Galatian Christians apostatized by “believing” that circumcision would now save them instead of the Blood of Jesus Christ in which they first believed. To believe in circumcision as a means of salvation is a mortal sin and this mortal sin is what made them “fall from grace” and it “severed” them from Christ/Christian faith. In other words, they started their own new “religion” based upon their own misunderstandings even though they still believed themselves to be Christians. Looks to me like they tried to interpret Scripture without the guidance of the Church hierarchy and this is why they erred. They failed to listen to and “obey” those who ruled over them in the faith. [Hebrews 13:7]

They lost their salvation because they fell from grace and severed themselves from Christ due to their sin of apostasy.

Only persons/branches that are still attached to the Vine/Christ at death are saved and enter eternal life. Attached “branches” are the branches that abide/remain in Christ.

Those branches which have severed themselves from Christ through sin (apostasy is sin) no longer abide/remain in Christ because they have fallen from grace because of their sins.

All the “branches” that are still severed from Christ the Vine at their deaths are gathered and thrown into the fire (hell).

John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Persons who apostatize no longer abide in Christ! Persons who apostatize are no longer saved. They can repent and confess in order to abide in Christ once again, and if they do remain attached to the Vine, Christ until death, then they will inherit eternal life. If they do not repent and confess, then they will be thrown into hellfire on Judgment Day.

What other mortal sins besides apostasy also cause a person to lose his/her salvation?

Paul gives us and the Galatians some examples:

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Did he exempt “saved” Christians from his warning? No, he was speaking directly to back-sliding Christians.

Galatians 5:7 “You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?”

Another mortal sin which keeps Christians from inheriting eternal life is this:

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” [1 John 5:16]

So, since we know that unbelievers are not saved, do you think that Christians who deny their faith by their works (those Christians whom Paul claims are worse than unbelievers) will still be saved? [Titus 1:16, Matthew 10:33]

I certainly don’t!

 

[guanophore]

Well; I don’t understand it the same; it does not appear that the Anglicans originally intended it to be an insult;

When you are able to pluck up your courage, P101, and study the history of the Reformation, you will find that it was, indeed, a pejorative term. Check this link

and look down at the synonyms.

this is just what some disgruntled Catholics are saying;

Actually, I am not at all disgruntled. In fact, I think it is a mark of triumph that Roman Catholics have been able to transform what was intended to be an insult into a basis of honor for themselves. Most Roman Catholics are very proud of their Rite, and should be.

The reason I labor on the point is because most accusations made against Catholicism fall apart when looked at from outside the Latin Rite.

I don’t think your Church officially teaches that either; although I could be wrong on that…

The Church reserves “official teaching” for matters of faith and moral. Insults hurled by the resentful and rebellious are obvious as such, and do not require any more “official teaching” than the Teaching of Christ, which is to turn the other cheek. Catholics have done this by embracing the insult.

But it certainly is nowhere near an insult, as used by thousands of both Catholics and Protestants since it’s inception; especially as they knew nothing about all of this. Your official Church name used to be Roman Catholic, as evidenced by it’s use by Catholics themselves. And this is something that some here are trying to distance from…changing truth is changing truth…

I think you will find, when you find the courage to study history, that the Latin Rite is actually one of the later Rites to develop. Prior to the division of the Empire, older rites such as Coptic, Syrian, and Greek preceeded the Latin. The Church is not defined by any of these Rites, as they are all cultural and linguistic expressions of the one Catholicity we all share.

 

[pete_29]

Do they still sell it?

Yep! It’s my youngest daughters favorite.

 

[guanophore]

Paul’s letter to the Galatian churches has nothing to do with sin and the loss of one’s salvation.

Such statements boggle the mind.

How can telling people that Christ will be of no benefit to them if they commit such a sin have nothing to do with salvation?

Then there is this passage:

Gal 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

Has “reap eternal life” nothing to do with salvation?

Paul would never write such a letter since he taught that the true believer’s sins were, once for all, forgiven through the substitutionary, expiatory, sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.

Well, I agree with you here. If Paul had taught those things, he would not have the need to write what he wrote to the Galatians. In fact, since he did NOT teach those things (they emanate from the Reformation 1600 years later) then he found it necessary to write about sin and salvation to the Galatians.

Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”[/indent]What you’re doing, SHW, is paying no attention to the content or overall context of Paul’s letter to the Galatians and instead imposing your own doctrinal thought into it. That being the RC doctrine of “sanctifying grace,” i.e., the “infusion” of so-called “grace” into the soul at the time of baptism.

It is true that Catholics read scripture through the lenses of Sacred Tradition (Apostolic Teaching committed to the Church). When we do this, we defnitely reject the newfangled emanations of the Reformation. The Apostles did teach that grace is infused into us at baptism.

Also called “justifying grace,” which Rome teaches is lost as soon as the RC commits a “mortal” sin (thereby rendering the cross of Christ impotent and meaningless). It’s what Rome calls the gospel of “initial justification,” which is completely foreign to Scripture; and most certainly foreign to Paul’s letter to the Galatians.

Acutally, it is mortal sin that Paul is discussing in Galatians. To begin in faith, then fall from grace is exactly what apostasy (mortal sin) is. When one separates himself from the grace that saves him, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins. We are “cut off”.

In his Epistle Paul was specifically addressing the Galatian apostasy. That of having abandoned the gospel of Jesus Christ which he earlier preached to them on his first missionary journey; the gospel of justification through faith in Christ alone, apart from works:Gal 1:2-9 "To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom {be} the glory forevermore. Amen. I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!That other “gospel” which was contrary to the one first preached to them was that of faith PLUS works.

Well, we understand the passage differently.

I think you must render it this way, though, in order to invalidate the Catholic faith, and the authority appointed by Christ over the Church. Paul was one of the most hard working Apostles in existence. He never taught “faith alone”. Instead, he taught “faith, working through love” as the only thing that mattered.

 

[guanophore]

The introduction and acceptance of such a distorted "gospel" caused those who believed it to "*fall from grace*," to be "*severed from Christ*," and the consequence of that legalism was that Christ was of no benefit to them.

We are in agreement on this point. When Paul came to Galatia, people were converted to Christ by grace, through faith. When some came later preaching a false gospel (that it was required to keep the Law of Moses), they fell from that grace by which they were saved, and were ready to be circumcised.

To say that these people were never “saved” is to deny your beloved Theopneustos Scriptures, Moon.

Acts 18:22-23

22 When he had landed at Caesare’a, he went up and greeted the church, and then went down to Antioch. 23 After spending some time there he departed and went from place to place through the region of Galatia and Phryg’ia, strengthening all the disciples.

How can you strengthen disciples that don’t exist?

The gospel Paul took to Galatia was that of salvation/justification through faith in Christ alone. There's no salvation in any other "gospel."

Certainly this is what you have been taught to believe, in keeping with the traditions of your Reformed ancestors.

Paul wasn’t warning the Galatians about losing salvation through so-called “mortal” sins (that’s Rome’s “gospel”), but the abandonment of the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ itself (apostasy); the gospel of God’s infinite grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

With the exception of the phrase “Christ alone” (He is never “alone”) this statement basically sums up exactly what Paul was warning about. Apsotasy is mortal sin. Beginning in faith, then trying to finish in “works” is apostasy.

The loss of the *true gospel*

The problem with your definition of apostasy, Moon, is that a “gospel” cannot “fall away”. Even a false gospel is not able to “fall from grace”. Only people do such things. Paul is addressing the people about embracing error (heresy) and falling away from the faith they received and embraced with joy at his coming. The gospel is a message. It does not have a will and a soul. People have those. People choose with their will to embrace error, and thereby, may lose their souls.

 

[BRB1]

I accept Pauline theology which exalts Christ alone, who alone redeemed me from my sins, reconciled me to God, justified me (as a gift), sanctified me in Himself, and promises to glorify me in the likeness of His glory - all in accordance with the eternal life I now possess.

You accept Pauline theology ? Consider the first 8 from Chp. Eight, written to the Apostolic Church in Roma.

                                 Romans 8:1-8

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the LAW of the SPIRIT of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the LAW of SIN and death. For God has done what the law, weaken by the FLESH, could not do; sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who walk not according to the FLESH but according to the SPIRIT. For those who live according to the FLESH set their minds on the things of the FLESH, but those who live accoding to the SPIRIT set their MINDS on the things of the FLESH, but those who live according to the SPIRIT set their minds on the things of the SPIRIT. To set the MIND on the FLESH is DEATH, but to set the MIND on the Spirit is LIFE and peace. For the MIND that is set on the FLESH is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s Law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the FLESH cannot please God.

Don’t you agree that Paul is teaching the Law is good, if it is Spiritually grace-based ?

 

[SHW]

Many persons do not understand the difference between the “royal law of Christ” and the “works of the Law of Moses.” After we become Christians, then we must obey/keep the Royal Law of Christ if we desire to enter/inherit eternal life.

This Royal Law pertains to love of God and neighbor. [Galatians 6:1-10]

Matthew 22:37-40 "Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

If we do not love God as Jesus commands and if we do not also love our neighbors as God commands, then we transgress/break this Royal Law and we will be convicted of breaking/transgressing this Royal Law and we will not inherit eternal life.

James 2:6-9 “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.”

We do not have to break/transgress “all” of God’s Commandments in order to lose our inheritance to eternal life. We only have to break “one” of them! And unless we repent and confess before death, then we will not inherit eternal life.

What is the value of this Royal Law?

Mark 12:32-34 “So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him.”

Romans 13:9 "For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

God’s “Ten Commandments” are subdivisions of His Royal Law of Love. If we obey God’s commandments, then we will fulfill the Royal Law. This Royal Law extends into eternity and it will be perfected in eternity and remain forever because LOVE endures forever. God is Love.

1 John 4:8 “He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.”

1 Corinthians 13:13 “And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

**
The “works” of the Law of Moses** had to do with the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” of the Old Covenant. These were commandments which regulated the ordinances of divine service and the tabernacle (earthly temple sanctuary). Jesus’ sacrifice made these types of “laws” obsolete and we are no longer bound by them.

Colossians 2:13-17 “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

We are no longer bound by the laws for the divine service of the Sabbath nor any other Old Covenant festivals or new moons, or dietary laws.

Hebrews 9:1, 10 “Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. …10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.”

Jesus’ New Covenant is this reformation.

Hebrews 8:13 " In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Ephesians 2:14-18 “For He Himself is our peace, who has made both (Jew and Gentile) one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both (Jew and Gentile) to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”

We are forbidden to obey the “Law of Moses” because it cannot justify/save us, but we must obey the “Royal Law of Christ” if we desire to inherit eternal life because man is justified by good works (faith working through love) and not faith alone. [Galatians 5:6, James 2:24, Acts 10:34-36]

 

[BRB1]

Many persons do not understand the difference between the “royal law of Christ” and the “works of the Law of Moses.” After we become Christians, then we must obey/keep the Royal Law of Christ if we desire to enter/inherit eternal life.

]

Law of Moses was sealed in the Flesh, by covenant of circumcision. ///// via Imputed grace mechanisms.

Law of Christ is sealed in Baptism of the Soul, washing/renewal of soul [fleshy heart rebirthed into a spiritual one] by grace of God, … enabled by faith in Christ and his Word/Work of Calvary and our covenantal pledge to become LIFELONG Disciple of Christ. ///// via Infused grace mechanisms.

New Covenant Infusion trumps Imputed Old Covenant mechanisms. This is not to say that OT believers were denied experiencing infusion of God’s graces. For the OT prophets, King David, and all the holy ones … were powerfully transformed/infused by HS. But, the circumcised Jews who declined to consent to infusion … remained in the Flesh and were not transformed by God’s spirit.

 

[moondweller]

guanophore:

I know it is most convenient for you to believe this, because this allows you to disregard other God Breathed Sources.

2 Tim. 3:16: It doesn’t say Scripture and “other sources” are theopheustos. You had me laughing on this one, G-4.

The Reformers felt it necessary to separate themselves from the Apostolic Traditions as a way of cutting themselves off from what they perceived was corruption in the clergy.

Actually many of the Reformers were clergy of the RCC. They believed they had to get back to the theopneustos Scriptures because the teaching authority of the Church had distorted the gospel of the grace of God with multiple add-ons as conditions to be met in order to be saved: a works based salvation.

On the contrary, the Apsotles taught that justification, sanctification, and glofirication are all parts of the same salvation, and that it is not completed until the end of this life.

I agree they’re all parts of the same salvation. But the last part of your statement is erroneous: Justification:

Rom 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,…" (cf. Rom. 3:24; 5:9; 8:30; 1 Cor. 6:11; Titus 3:5-7)

Sanctification:

Acts 26:18 "…*to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who **have been ** sanctified by faith in Me’ (cf. 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 2:11; 10:10,14).

As for Glorification of the believer’s body, that will not happen immediately at the end of one’s life but in an instant at a time set by the Father. For the church Christ is presently building it will happen at the time of the rapture of it (1 Thess. 4:15-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-53).

Fruitbearing and obedience are most certainly part of our salvation.

Yes, I agree that fruit bearing is part of salvation but not in any way, shape or form, a cause anyone’s salvation. It’s only the saved that can bear fruit (being now "in Christ). Mind you, I didn’t say only the baptized can bear fruit; baptism and salvation are not synonymous. Countless have been baptized but have never entered salvation which is “by grace through faith” in Christ alone.

The Galatians were being misled into believing that their righteousness before God through faith had to include “walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord” contained in the Levitical Law.

Can you show me where the phrase “Levitacal Law” was ever used by Paul or anyone else in Scripture? The truth is there’s no such thing as “the Levitical Law.” There was only “the LAW” which included the 10 Commandments at its core. Those Commandments, those “letters engraved on stones,” Paul calls a ministry of “condemnation” and “death” (2 Cor. 3:7-11). Why? Because they had no power to forgive sin, they could only expose sin in the form of transgressions of Law. They could not impart life. The life all men born into this world need is found only in the Son of Man and is divinely imparted by grace (unmeritoriously) through faith in Him alone (Jn. 1:4; 1 Jn. 5:11-13).

BRB:

Don’t you agree that Paul is teaching the Law is good, if it is Spiritually grace-based?

There’s no such thing as “grace-based” Law. Paul doesn’t say that the Law is not good; he in fact says it is good, holy and righteous (Rom. 7:12).

What the Law did (its purpose) through its Commandments and ordinances was EXPOSE the fact that all men (not the Law) are not holy, righteous and good. That all men, born into this world as members of Adam’s race, are in dire need of Life and Righteousness. And these we see revealed in the theopneustos Scriptures are divinely gifted by God, apart from works, at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ alone.

This is the gospel Paul had to re-introduce by letter to the churches in the region of Galatia (read Galatians chpt. 3). The true gospel from which some quickly departed through the introduction of a works righteousness, rather than the “the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.” (Phil. 3:9).*

 

[moondweller]

Apostasy: an abandoning of what one has believed in, as a faith, cause, or principles

Yes, apostasy is the abandonment. But abandonment is a process beginning with the introduction of false doctrines. In the case of some of the Galatian churches it was the introduction of faith PLUS works, grace PLUS law. Sound familiar? Their acceptance of this false doctrine totally distorted the pure gospel originally delivered to them by Paul:Gal 1:6-7 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ."When false doctrines are accepted and incorporated as the official teachings of a church, full blown apostasy eventually sets in. The truth is lost and error is propagated. Paul wrote his letter to the Galatian churches for the main purpose of trying to ward off apostasy from fully developing in that region.

Judaizers came into that region saying that God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ was not enough to be justified before God. They had to also adhere to the Law. IOW, faith PLUS works. It sounded good to them. After all, logically, isn’t doing more always better than doing less? NO!!! Was Paul’s doctrinal response. Paul had to explained to them AGAIN that righteousness comes through FAITH alone:Gal 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (i.e., works), then Christ died needlessly.” You foolish Galatians (or insert your own name), who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed {as} crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and IT (his faith, not his works) was reckoned (credited) to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith (not works) who are sons of Abraham."Paul explains the relationship of the covenant of Law, under which the Jews were obligated to live before God, and “the faith” which has now come, and the GRACE of God with it through the Person and work of Jesus Christ alone:Gal 3:22-26 “But the Scripture (notice the authority of Scripture expressed here) has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (that, my friend, is faith alone). But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith (not the "the works”) which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.This is the content of the gospel Paul originally took to that region of Galatia. It’s this gospel they so quickly deserted for another. A false “gospel” of works which if propagated could save no one because “a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.” IOW, total apostasy would set in and apostasy can only beget apostates.

 

[Bill_Pick]

a question for Rev. MacArthur: is the doctrine of sola scriptura biblical?

Most non-cathloic will say if it not in the bible I will not believe but Bible alone (SS) is not To be found in the bible. and was not a teaching until about 1460 years after the death of Our Lord

 

[BRB1]

There’s no such thing as “grace-based” Law.

Paul doesn’t say that the Law is not good; he in fact says it is good, holy and righteous (Rom. 7:12).

).

Hello !! No such thing as grace-based Law ? Heard of the Beatitudes ? Can you follow the Law of Love w/o the Gift of Grace ?

Then I asked you “Don’t you agree that Paul is teaching the Law is good … ?” And you respond “Paul doesn’t say that the Law is NOT good, he in fact says it is good …”

Another ‘Pretzel answer’ from you. You took my affirmative question on the Law being Good, and answered a question I had not asked

 

[guanophore]

 2 Tim. 3:16:  It doesn't say  Scripture and "*other sources*" are *theopheustos.*  You had me laughing on this one, G-4.

Of course not! Scripture was never intended to contain the entire breath of God.

The fact that you would expect it to do so demonstrates how much you have limited yourself.

The Church is also theopneustos:

John 20:22-23
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The only other time in Scripture where God breathed life into anyone is at the time of the first creation (Adam). He gives birth to the Church, breathing into the Apostles His Own Breath. He authorizes them with the same authority He has been given by the Father.

Matt 9:4-8
For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" - he then said to the paralytic - “Rise, take up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

The Apostles knew that God had given authority on earth to forgive sins to men. They were commissioned by Christ with His Own Breath. Men cannot forgive sins apart from the very Breath of God.

The Reformers were clergy of the RCC. They believed they had to get back to the theopneustos Scriptures because the teaching authority of the Church had distorted the gospel of the grace of God with multiple add-ons as conditions to be met in order to be saved: a works based salvation.

No, Moon, the teaching authority of the Church never taught this. The Catholic Church has never taught a gospel of a works based salvation. I do agree with you that those Catholic clergy in Europe at the time of the Reformation had corrupt practices. They were not representing Catholicism, but their own selfish interests. Division and separation are always the results of corrupted pastors and teachers, Catholic and otherwise.

Yes, I agree that fruit bearing is part of salvation but not in any way, shape or form, a cause anyone’s salvation.

The Catholic Church teaches that works (fruitbearing) are part of salvation, but are not the cause of salvation. The Catholic Church has always taught that salvation is by grace, through faith.

It's only the saved that can bear fruit (being now "in Christ). Mind you, I didn't say only the *baptized* can bear fruit; baptism and salvation are not synonymous.

The Apostles taught that it is through baptism that we are justified before God. We become clothed with Christ, and we are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into light. I will agree that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes, but the normative means He has given to humans to become members of His One Body, the Church, is baptism.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

It is the 'circumcision made without hands".

Countless have been baptized but have never entered salvation which is "*by grace* through faith" in Christ alone.

All who are baptized (in faith) enter eternal life. But, that eternal life is like a river, and one can get out of it and walk away.

Can you show me where the phrase “Levitacal Law” was ever used by Paul or anyone else in Scripture?

This is what Paul is writing about when he uses the term “works of the Law” and “ordinances”.

There was only “the LAW” which included the 10 Commandments at its core.

I agree. However, Jesus separated those 10 commandments from the ordinances. He restated and taught on all the commandments (except the Sabbath, which is fulfilled in Himself). The remainder were nailed to the cross with Him.

Those Commandments, those “letters engraved on stones,” Paul calls a ministry of “condemnation” and “death” (2 Cor. 3:7-11). Why? Because they had no power to forgive sin, they could only expose sin in the form of transgressions of Law. They could not impart life. The life all men born into this world need is found only in the Son of Man and is divinely imparted by grace (Jn. 1:4; 1 Jn. 5:11-13).[/qutoe]

This is the Catholic teaching. You have this in the NT because this is what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.
moondweller;5319981:

There’s no such thing as "grace-based

" Law.

Perhaps I did not express myself well, but I do not believe I referred to a 'grace based Law". Rather, I referred to grace based OBEDIENCE to the Law. We are able to keep the Commandments because of grace, through faith. This is how the parents of John the Baptist were righteous and blameless before God.

What the Law did (its purpose

) through its Commandments and ordinances was EXPOSE the fact that all men (not the Law) are not holy, righteous and good. That all men, born into this world as members of Adam’s race, are in dire need of Life and Righteousness.

Indeed, this is the Teaching of the Catholic Church. The departure, I suspect, is that you may reject the Apostolic Teaching that we are able, by grace, through faith, to keep the commandments.

 

[SHW]

Yes, apostasy is the abandonment. But abandonment is a process beginning with the introduction of false doctrines. In the case of some of the Galatian churches it was the introduction of faith PLUS works, grace PLUS law. Sound familiar?

Better eat more fruits and vegetables.

No one is first justified/saved by the “works of the Law of Moses” nor “righteous works” because only Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross could atone for Adam’s sin and open the gates of heaven for us so that we could have hope of inheriting eternal life.

Adam’s sin made us enemies of God and we lost eternal life. Jesus’ sacrifice reconciles us to God as friends through Baptism which spiritually regenerates us. [Romans 5, Titus 3:5, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Ephesians 2:1]

However, after we are justified by Baptism, then we have hope of eternal life. Hope is not something that is a sure thing. [Titus 3:7]

I can hope to go to the beach on Monday. However, when Monday comes, if I cannot actually go to the beach, then my hope is not realized. I never receive what I hoped for.

We must remain in God’s kindness/grace in order to actually inherit eternal life when we die.

Romans 11:22 “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

We know that if we are actually cut off the Vine/Christ due to sin, then we are no longer saved/justified because we must remain attached to Christ until death in order to realize our hope of inheriting eternal life.

John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
**
If persons sin, then they no longer abide/remain in Christ and they are no longer saved. **Instead, if they do not repent and confess before death, then they will be cast into hellfire.

Jesus states in Matthew 19:16-23 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Why is it hard for a rich man to enter heaven? Because he does not love his neighbor as himself. Unless he shares, he will be cast into hell. [Luke 3:10-11, 1 Timothy 6:9]
**
Jesus commands that we keep His commandments in order to inherit eternal life.** You keep stating that after we are saved, that our works have no bearing on whether we inherit eternal life or not. Since Jesus states otherwise, then you are implying that Jesus is a liar!

Hebrews 5:9-11 “9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.”

Unless we do the will of His Father in heaven, we will not be saved. We were created to do good works and fulfill His plan for us and unless we do good works and refrain from doing evil works, then we are not doing the will of His Father and we will not be saved.

Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

This is a command; it is not a suggestion! We must do good works in order to inherit eternal life. If we do not do them, then Jesus will vomit us out of His mouth! [Revelation 3:16]

Matthew 7:20-24 “Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “**Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. **22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Faith alone is not Biblical and is instead a false doctrine!

 

[guanophore]

Yes, apostasy is the abandonment. But abandonment is a process beginning with the introduction of false doctrines.

Not a bit, Moon. On the contrary, it is actually especially when sound doctrine is preached that apostasy occurs. You have been taught some sort of “mass” apostasy so as to justify rebellion against the authority appointed by Christ, but this is not the case.

Once doctrine is perverted and embraced, such as occurred in the Reformation, persons are no longer guilty of apostasy, because they never had true doctrine in the first place.

In the case of some of the Galatian churches it was the introduction of faith PLUS works, grace PLUS law.  Sound familiar?

Only because a Catholic wrote that epistle to Catholics about the Catholic faith. Catholicism does not teach salvation by works of the law.

Their acceptance of this false doctrine totally distorted the pure gospel originally delivered to them by Paul:Gal 1:6-7 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ."When false doctrines are accepted and incorporated as the official teachings of a church, full blown apostasy eventually sets in.

I am not sure what “full blown apostasy” can mean. Apostasy does not happen corporately, but individually. Besides, as much as we can find fault with the Latin Rite Clergy in Europe at the time of the Reformation, what they taught was their own self centered distortion. This has never been the “official teaching of the Church”.

The truth is lost and error is propagated. Paul wrote his letter to the Galatian churches for the main purpose of trying to ward off apostasy from fully developing in that region.

Yes, of course. I think it is important for you to cling to your theology that you believe that the Catholic Church did fall into “full blown apostasy”. This is a creation of your own mind, though.

Judaizers came into that region saying that God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ was not enough to be justified before God. They had to also adhere to the Law. IOW, faith PLUS works.

You have misunderstood the nature of the heresy.

It sounded good to them. After all, logically, isn’t doing more always better than doing less? NO!!! Was Paul’s doctrinal response. Paul had to explained to them AGAIN that righteousness comes through FAITH alone:

Gal 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (i.e., works), then Christ died needlessly.” You foolish Galatians (or insert your own name), who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed {as} crucified?
​

Sure sounds to me like Paul was carrying a Crucifix!​

 

[guanophore]

**Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith** (*not works*) **who are sons of Abraham**."

I think you read passages like this, and see them in isolation, and it results in a skewed perception of the relationship between faith and works. The works issue really has mor to do with the nature of the faith. The faith that saves is faith that works. It is not faith “plus” works as you assert, but faith, working through love, as the Apostle teaches. This is confirmed in James, who says “I will show you my faith by my works”. Saving faith is faith that works. The two cannot be separated, just as they were not for Zechariah and Elizabeth. They were blameless and righteous “walking in all the commandments and ordinances” because of their faith.

The faith of Abraham is a faith that works:

Heb 11:8-12

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

How did Abraham demonstrate his faith? Obeyed, received, went out, sojourned, lived in tnents, looked forward, etc, etc. His faith acted.

*that, my friend, is faith alone*.

Without a doubt, I am sure it seems that way to you. However, faith is never alone.

1 Cor 13:13
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Saving faith is always accompanied by works of charity, and hope. Have you never wondered why, if faith “alone” is the most important, why the Apostle taught that love was greater?
moondweller;5320036:

. For you are all sons of God through faith

in Christ Jesus.[/indent]This is the content of the gospel Paul originally took to that region of Galatia. It’s this gospel they so quickly deserted for another. A false “gospel” of works which if propagated could save no one because “a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.” IOW, total apostasy would set in and apostasy can only beget apostates.

Yes, I have heard this arguement many times from Reformed posters. However, it is erroneous. Apostasy cannot “beget apostates”. This is a fantasy. The falling away from the faith (apostasy) renders a person unfit to preach the true gospel. Those that preach a false gospel do not engender apostasy, as they cannot. They propagate heresy, but no one who has failed to receive the true gospel can rightfully be called “apostate”. One has to have something, before one can fall away from it. On the contrary, apostasy creates heresy. It is not the same result. The persons that presently embrace false doctrines cannot be charged with the sin of apostacy or heresy, because they never had the truth.

 

[Protestant101]

The Apostle show us what we call the sin of “presumption”, which is considering that we have already made salvation our own, instead of focusing on our call. The notion that someone is already “saved” in this life is what Paul considers immature thinking.

Now, you were talking about including all that the New Testament teaches on “being saved;” yet in your statements above you include only one of the three tenses that the Bible assures us of. 1) “saved” 2) “being saved” 3) “shall be saved” Paul does not consider it “immature thinking” if one is assured, by God’s Word, of their salvation. Bible writers, however, are unanimous in condemning those who think that because they are saved; they can do as they please. I think that Catholics would have to agree that it does not work this way.