John paul a saint?

[AnneElizabeth]

historically that is not true. Many saints were canonized either by the sheer popularity among the faithful or to highlight their cause. Pope’s have canonized their predecessor. In this case, you have another pontificate in between! Not only that but the Holy spirit has declared this to be the Will of God by fulfilling all the requirements to be a saint.

Those who think it is too fast seem to have an underlying objection that they don’t seem to want to vocalize for whatever reason.

Yes, what you said at the beginning of your post is true, then the Church saw how this could be bad for the church and changed it. The Church then saw that it was prudent to carefully and cautiously go through each case with a fine tooth comb, over and over, and for years before canonization took place. They did this because there were mermaids who were saints and dogs who were saints… If you don’t believe me, look it up. It was only just in recent years too that the popular St. Christopher was thought to be made up and ‘downgraded’ to a fairy tale. So, what is it someone was saying about taking back canonizations? Because they did just do that.

Hoosier Daddy, If I recall, a poster above me vocalized her objections. Maybe you just don’t want to hear them or look into them. Also, I thought your post towards the OP was rude. I found no offense in what they said. And also, I should state here that I’m not against pope JPII, but I am anti-fanatical, which lacks sense and is dangerous.

 

[Joe_5859]

I imagine that if the internet would have been around at the time, we’d have heard many of the same lamentations about Francis of Assisi, who was canonized less that 2 years after his death.

Why is it so hard for some people to trust that the Church knows what she is doing?

Indeed!

I know a priest involved in a canonization process. It’s a rigorous process and they ask and answer all the questions that anyone on the internet could ever dream of.

Of course, John XXIII never had a second miracle confirmed, so he didn’t go through the whole process. But considering the process itself is not divinely revealed dogma and that the Pope – being Vicar of Christ and all – is the final arbiter, who am I to presume to know better?

A little filial trust in our Holy Father goes a long way. I don’t know how any Catholic wouldn’t be super-pumped about this double canonization. This is a good thing people! Let’s celebrate! No need for curmudgeonly criticism of decisions our Holy Father is well within his purview to make.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

JPII exhibited ALL those qualities. I have to wonder why people are against it?
Why would anyone object to Sainthood of any person?
A look into his life shows that there is merit to his Sainthood.
As I said, read his documents, read his life story. It’s all right there. Pretty clear.

You used the term “brilliant”, which, to me, means intelligence- smarts. Is that what you meant by the term? That is how I took it to mean when you used it.

Good question, “why would anyone object to Sainthood of any person?” Very good question.

 

[pianistclare]

You used the term “brilliant”, which, to me, means intelligence- smarts. Is that what you meant by the term? That is how I took it to mean when you used it.

Good question, “why would anyone object to Sainthood of any person?” Very good question.

Theologians are smart. he was a brilliant theologian, as well as a brilliant example of what it mean to model Christ, (especially in his suffering his latter years).
So, yeah. That’s what I meant. God’s peace to you.

 

[Orogeny]

Tim,

What’s the point of beating down someone who has reservations? Why be angry and beat me and others down who do? Should we not speak up to what the Holy Spirit says in our hearts? Or can you be the judge of that?

Does the Holy Spirit say something different to you than He does to His Church? Think about that.

Especially since I am following the CHURCH in what it has always said to do- and that is be patient, and be prudent, then why beat me?

The Church establishes the criteria for declaring that someone is in heaven. The Church can require whatever She wants because She IS guided by the Holy Spirit. If the Church declared Pope John Paul II a saint the night he died, She would be correct.

What if one of those miracles (healings) suddenly reverses itself? That can and does happen… so, if that happens, were they healed or was it just a fluke of nature? How should the church (people) feel or think about that after if that happens? Was it a miracle or was it just ‘remission’ ? For this reason alone, lots of time should be given.

How much time? Please, give us a number and the basis for that number.

Again, what is the rush? If he is a saint, he is a saint and you can pray to him regardless of whether or not he is canonized.

I suspect that you would oppose the canonization regardless of when the Church makes the declaration, so the answer is that there is no rush, just an acknowledgement of reality.

Peace

Tim

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, what you said at the beginning of your post is true, then the Church saw how this could be bad for the church and changed it. The Church then saw that it was prudent to carefully and cautiously go through each case with a fine tooth comb, over and over, and for years before canonization took place. They did this because there were mermaids who were saints and dogs who were saints… If you don’t believe me, look it up. It was only just in recent years too that the popular St. Christopher was thought to be made up and ‘downgraded’ to a fairy tale. So, what is it someone was saying about taking back canonizations? Because they did just do that.

Hoosier Daddy, If I recall, a poster above me vocalized her objections. Maybe you just don’t want to hear them or look into them. Also, I thought your post towards the OP was rude. I found no offense in what they said. And also, I should state here that I’m not against pope JPII, but I am anti-fanatical, which lacks sense and is dangerous.

You are misinformed. And I would encourage you to not only learn the truth about certain things you assert but I also encourage you to Trust in the Holy Catholic Church. She is the one who is putting a Infallible label on this. Not your misinformed ideas of the Saints and the process. The Church has the authority to do as She wishes. She can make canonizations short or long. Rather than talking about mermaids. And misinformation about St Christopher, perhaps you should just come out and say WHY you feel more time needs to be taken. If your argument is based on prudence of the Church I am afraid that will not cut it. If your argument is about infallibility or the man himself being canonized then we can continue the conversation. My guess, you have your reservations based on your own personal theology differing with Pope John Paul the Second. I disagree with him on some issues as well, but deny him or postpone what God himself has ordained through miracles and leadership in the faith? Man, I cannot imagine! I would leave the faith if I felt as though the Church were acting imprudently.

Anyhow, it is not for you to dictate to the Church what prudence is.
How could you have that kind of gall?

 

[Della]

Yes, what you said at the beginning of your post is true, then the Church saw how this could be bad for the church and changed it. The Church then saw that it was prudent to carefully and cautiously go through each case with a fine tooth comb, over and over, and for years before canonization took place. They did this because there were mermaids who were saints and dogs who were saints… If you don’t believe me, look it up. It was only just in recent years too that the popular St. Christopher was thought to be made up and ‘downgraded’ to a fairy tale. So, what is it someone was saying about taking back canonizations? Because they did just do that.

St. Christopher was not “downgraded” rather his cult was removed from the universal calendar but he is still regarded as a saint and he is still celebrated locally, and at parishes named for him. Much of what was written about him was mere legend, but he did exist and is a legitimate saint.

Hoosier Daddy, If I recall, a poster above me vocalized her objections. Maybe you just don’t want to hear them or look into them. Also, I thought your post towards the OP was rude. I found no offense in what they said. And also, I should state here that I’m not against pope JPII, but I am anti-fanatical, which lacks sense and is dangerous.

The time to debate anyone’s canonization is before they have gone through the process and been declared a saint, not afterwards. The debate did happen, the matter has been decided, and there’s an end of it. As faithful Catholics we say, “Amen” not “I still have the right to question.” Either the Church has the charism of infallibility in such matters or it doesn’t. As Catholics we believe that it does, no matter what process was followed or how short or long it was.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Does the Holy Spirit say something different to you than He does to His Church? Think about that.The Church establishes the criteria for declaring that someone is in heaven. The Church can require whatever She wants because She IS guided by the Holy Spirit. If the Church declared Pope John Paul II a saint the night he died, She would be correct.How much time? Please, give us a number and the basis for that number.I suspect that you would oppose the canonization regardless of when the Church makes the declaration, so the answer is that there is no rush, just an acknowledgement of reality.

Peace

Tim

You didn’t answer my question. Instead you gave me a question. Did you judge me without knowing me- that you think I don’t stop to think about it? Also, it seems you’re dismissing my concerns.

What about St. Catherine, when she opposed the Pope? I guess she should have just shut up because well, by what you say, she couldn’t have been called by the Holy Spirit to speak up, because she must have been wrong since she didn’t feel the same way the Holy See did. Of course, she wasn’t canonized at that time, but found years later after her death to be correct in doing what she did. I"m no way advocating that everyone who has opposition to a decree as correct, but I’m saying that IT HAPPENS. Even the church knows this. It would be wise to take account of church member’s reservations if they prove to be true and loyal to the Faith.

How much time, you ask? As much time as it takes to be absolutely sure, for the safety of the Faith and those who are in it. For most of church history, most saints, it took at least about a hundred years to canonize them. For others it was 200 or 300 years. There have been a select few in which it was very quick. If I recall, for those, they lived in extreme poverty.

Why do you assess that I’d oppose a canonization regardless? This seems like another judgment of me. You don’t know me. Why the flippant remarks? Is it because I’ve put up some opposition to your viewpoint and you don’t like it? I don’t take matters of the church lightly at all. I think its the most serious thing there is on earth. I don’t claim to be right, but its wrong to dismiss people simply because you don’t like their answer or its not the answer that the majority gives. Polite discussion for guidance for the love of their soul should ensue if there is charity to be found in both of them.

 

[pianistclare]

You didn’t answer my question. Instead you gave me a question. Did you judge me without knowing me- that you think I don’t stop to think about it? Also, it seems you’re dismissing my concerns.

What about St. Catherine, when she opposed the Pope? I guess she should have just shut up because well, by what you say, she couldn’t have been called by the Holy Spirit to speak up, because she must have been wrong since she didn’t feel the same way the Holy See did. Of course, she wasn’t canonized at that time, but found years later after her death to be correct in doing what she did. I"m no way advocating that everyone who has opposition to a decree as correct, but I’m saying that IT HAPPENS. Even the church knows this. It would be wise to take account of church member’s reservations if they prove to be true and loyal to the Faith.

How much time, you ask? As much time as it takes to be absolutely sure, for the safety of the Faith and those who are in it. For most of church history, most saints, it took at least about a hundred years to canonize them. For others it was 200 or 300 years. There have been a select few in which it was very quick. If I recall, for those, they lived in extreme poverty.

Why do you assess that I’d oppose a canonization regardless? This seems like another judgment of me. You don’t know me. Why the flippant remarks? Is it because I’ve put up some opposition to your viewpoint and you don’t like it? I don’t take matters of the church lightly at all. I think its the most serious thing there is on earth. I don’t claim to be right, but its wrong to dismiss people simply because you don’t like their answer or its not the answer that the majority gives. Polite discussion for guidance for the love of their soul should ensue if there is charity to be found in both of them.

Which Catherine are you speaking of?
Catherine of Siena encouraged the Pope to return to Rome. A VERY good thing.
She showed that women do indeed have wisdom and should have a voice in the Church. She was not a detriment to the Church. Or are you speaking about someone else? If you are, I’m sorry.


In short, I don’t think there is any legitimate worry regarding JPII. His record is impeccable and he has miracles attributed to his intercession. He put up Mother Teresa of Calcutta up for canonization in a short period. Mostly because due to modern communication, the entire world knew of her holiness. Same with JPII.

And as Della put so well, it’s a done deal. Nothing inappropriate in his cause anyway.
God bless.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

“I still have the right to question.” .

And yet this is not what Pope Benedict said in ECCLESIA IN MEDIO ORIENTE

here’s a snippet:
26. Religious freedom is the pinnacle of all other freedoms.** It is a sacred and inalienable right**. It includes on the individual and collective levels the freedom to follow one’s conscience in religious matters and, at the same time, freedom of worship. It includes the freedom to choose the religion which one judges to be true and to manifest one’s beliefs in public.[21] It must be possible to profess and freely manifest one’s religion and its symbols without endangering one’s life and personal freedom. Religious freedom is rooted in the dignity of the person; it safeguards moral freedom and fosters mutual respect. Jews, with their long experience of often deadly assaults, know full well the benefits of religious freedom.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…I also encourage you to Trust in the Holy Catholic Church. …

/QUOTE]

I have a real question for you. Is trust earned? Or do we just hand it over blindly no matter what? Even if our conscience says something else? Do we ignore what we know to be truth or do we go with what someone else says is '‘all fine and dandy’ without any regard to anything else?

My whole point in speaking up over all of this iis that there are people who do have reservations. Yet when I hear them speak all I see is people knocking them down, and that to me is NOT faith, it is FANATICISM, which is wrong. Its ok to be joyful about your faith, but as soon as you start shooting down people who have reservations, you do no good for anyone.

 

[pianistclare]

Hoosier Daddy;11928130:

…I also encourage you to Trust in the Holy Catholic Church. …

/QUOTE]

I have a real question for you. Is trust earned? Or do we just hand it over blindly no matter what? Even if our conscience says something else? Do we ignore what we know to be truth or do we go with what someone else says is '‘all fine and dandy’ without any regard to anything else?

My whole point in speaking up over all of this iis that there are people who do have reservations. Yet when I hear them speak all I see is people knocking them down, and that to me is NOT faith, it is FANATICISM, which is wrong. Its ok to be joyful about your faith, but as soon as you start shooting down people who have reservations, you do no good for anyone.

Well… I have to say dear one…I understand your hesitation because your header says “unsure Catholic”.
OK. You’re unsure. I feel like someone has filled your head with doubts.
I suggest some reliable reading material, and prayer. It’s ok to doubt. Everybody does at times; it’s the human condition. But people who are “CONVINCED and CONVICTED” are not fanatics.
They are simply faithful and true to what the Church teaches.
They are no different than you.
You are questioning…I hope you find answers that dispel your doubts.
In the meantime, some of us are happy with the process.
God bless you on your personal journey. May the Lord of all gentleness guide you and keep you close.
pianist

 

[Orogeny]

You didn’t answer my question. Instead you gave me a question. Did you judge me without knowing me- that you think I don’t stop to think about it? Also, it seems you’re dismissing my concerns.

I am certainly judging what you are writing. When someone opposes the Church and justifies their position by suggesting that the Holy Spirit is the basis for the opposition, then, yes, I will judge your position - just as you have judged the Church.

Now, how about answering my question?

What about St. Catherine, when she opposed the Pope? I guess she should have just shut up because well, by what you say, she couldn’t have been called by the Holy Spirit to speak up, because she must have been wrong since she didn’t feel the same way the Holy See did. Of course, she wasn’t canonized at that time, but found years later after her death to be correct in doing what she did. I"m no way advocating that everyone who has opposition to a decree as correct, but I’m saying that IT HAPPENS. Even the church knows this. It would be wise to take account of church member’s reservations if they prove to be true and loyal to the Faith.

Did St. Catherine oppose an infallible declaration of the Church? If not, then your argument doesn’t apply here.

How much time, you ask? As much time as it takes to be absolutely sure, for the safety of the Faith and those who are in it. For most of church history, most saints, it took at least about a hundred years to canonize them. For others it was 200 or 300 years. There have been a select few in which it was very quick. If I recall, for those, they lived in extreme poverty.

What does extreme poverty have to do with your argument?

Why do you assess that I’d oppose a canonization regardless?

I base that completely on what you have written. You don’t believe that Pope John Paul II is in heaven based on your reservations. He is now dead. What will change those reservations to support?

I don’t take matters of the church lightly at all. I think its the most serious thing there is on earth. I don’t claim to be right, but its wrong to dismiss people simply because you don’t like their answer or its not the answer that the majority gives. Polite discussion for guidance for the love of their soul should ensue if there is charity to be found in both of them.

Is the Church led by the Holy Spirit? Does the Church have the authority to declare that someone is in heaven?

Peace

Tim

 

[Della]

And yet this is not what Pope Benedict said in ECCLESIA IN MEDIO ORIENTE

here’s a snippet:

26. Religious freedom is the pinnacle of all other freedoms.** It is a sacred and inalienable right**. It includes on the individual and collective levels the freedom to follow one’s conscience in religious matters and, at the same time, freedom of worship. It includes the freedom to choose the religion which one judges to be true and to manifest one’s beliefs in public.[21] It must be possible to profess and freely manifest one’s religion and its symbols without endangering one’s life and personal freedom. Religious freedom is rooted in the dignity of the person; it safeguards moral freedom and fosters mutual respect. Jews, with their long experience of often deadly assaults, know full well the benefits of religious freedom.

This does not apply to what faithful Catholics are to assent to as faithful Catholics. If you believe the Church has the final authority then you must consent to what the Church decides. You are not free to hold to whatever you like and still call yourself faithful. He is speaking of non-Christians here not to those who profess the Catholic faith they vowed to uphold in baptism and confirmation.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

AnneElizabeth;11928309:

Well… I have to say dear one…I understand your hesitation because your header says “unsure Catholic”.
OK. You’re unsure. I feel like someone has filled your head with doubts.
I suggest some reliable reading material, and prayer. It’s ok to doubt. Everybody does at times; it’s the human condition. But people who are “CONVINCED and CONVICTED” are not fanatics.
They are simply faithful and true to what the Church teaches.
They are no different than you.
You are questioning…I hope you find answers that dispel your doubts.
In the meantime, some of us are happy with the process.
God bless you on your personal journey. May the Lord of all gentleness guide you and keep you close.
pianist

Thank you, Pianistclare. That’s very kind of you to say, thank you very much. You are correct in your assessment, except I would have to say that its not someone who filled my head with doubts, but rather just life experience. I’d hope I am faithful to the Church and I would want others to be so as well. I also want the Church to be true- all ranks. If I have to come across as the mean curmudgeon to get that done for God’s sake, so be it. We need to be ready. We need to be efficient for Christ. We all should watch- so very important! We will all have to give an account.

Holy Scripture says to be ready to give account as to why we believe.. that means when someone asks "why", it really means that you tell them why for their sake, so that they can see and learn too.  Not, "oh well you silly, can't you see?!"  Pardon me for playing devil's advocate for them, even if they aren't sincere in asking ... Scripture states we still owe them (out of charity) the answer.

 

[LongingSoul]

In all my 52 years, there is no one more truly loved and respected by me than Bl. Pope John Paul II. There have been situations that have deeply shaken my faith in God where I clung on only by the witness of this man. I was able to say, Lord I don’t know if I believe… but if your man Bl. JPII believes… I will believe too. Every day of my life, I thank God for sending this gift of holiness and love to walk with us in this treacherous journey through life. In some ways I feel that this must be how the very first Christians felt by the gift of Gods very own Son sent to walk among them. Pope John Paul II makes Jesus life more real and powerful to me than anyone elses words or life I have ever known.

Thankyou Lord, for the your great benevolence and generosity to this unholy generation in giving us the faithful and shining Bl JPII !

 

[pianistclare]

I believe that so many are moved by JP II because we literally “knew him”.
Televised Masses, new reports of his visits to all nations, his life story readily available, interviews with people who knew him closely…it all made loving him as a Saint so easy.
We love all the ancient saints, true…but when you find one AMONG you…ministering to people around you…it has a huge impact.
My husband saw him on his visit to Knock Ireland when he visited all the Marian apparition sites. One of his most treasured experiences.
People often think there are no more good people…then we encounter these 2 Holy Popes.
Amazing and wonderful.

 

[LongingSoul]

I believe that so many are moved by JP II because we literally “knew him”.
Televised Masses, new reports of his visits to all nations, his life story readily available, interviews with people who knew him closely…it all made loving him as a Saint so easy.
We love all the ancient saints, true…but when you find one AMONG you…ministering to people around you…it has a huge impact.
My husband saw him on his visit to Knock Ireland when he visited all the Marian apparition sites. One of his most treasured experiences.
People often think there are no more good people…then we encounter these 2 Holy Popes.
Amazing and wonderful.

I think that with the exposure that technology gives to peoples lives comes also the ability to make the necessary examinations of someones character and history very thoroughly, very quickly. That aspect wasn’t available in the past when conducting the process of beautification of a person. I remember even when I was a child in 60’s in outback Australia, we used to get ancilliary news well after it came to light in Europe or the US. Now we all know everything instantaneously.

I saw him when he came to Australia in 1986. I was 24 and volunteered to be an usher at the open air Mass in Brisbane. I had to spend most of the Mass manning a gate towards the back of the stands and felt really disappointed not to have been closer. Then at the end of Mass, all the ushers and volunteers were asked to come down to the perimeter of the field and the Pope was driven around very close to the fence to pass us. I was within 10 feet of him! :heaven: What a wonderful day! I will never forget.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think that with the exposure that technology gives to peoples lives comes also the ability to make the necessary examinations of someones character and history very thoroughly, very quickly. That aspect wasn’t available in the past when conducting the process of beautification of a person. I remember even when I was a child in 60’s in outback Australia, we used to get ancilliary news well after it came to light in Europe or the US. Now we all know everything instantaneously.

I saw him when he came to Australia in 1986. I was 24 and volunteered to be an usher at the open air Mass in Brisbane. I had to spend most of the Mass manning a gate towards the back of the stands and felt really disappointed not to have been closer. Then at the end of Mass, all the ushers and volunteers were asked to come down to the perimeter of the field and the Pope was driven around very close to the fence to pass us. I was within 10 feet of him! :heaven: What a wonderful day! I will never forget.

Yes and no in regard to technology. Our current Pope’s every word is bent and twisted by that very technology. So we must be careful to examine the information that media and technology gives us with a healthy dose of skepticism.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes and no in regard to technology. Our current Pope’s every word is bent and twisted by that very technology. So we must be careful to examine the information that media and technology gives us with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Well ok, but I’m trying to keep it positive here ya know?

Any negative is far outweighed by the good that these holy men can promote through their words of love. That the Vicar of Christ can be present in real time to the far corners of the earth is a blessing.
Questioning news sources for veracity should be done in regard to everything, not just Popes. Evil is always at work. I prefer to focus on the good.
Peace.