John Paul the Great?

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Bataar

New member
What are your opinions of John Paul II being given this title? I happened to overhear my mother who is a very devout Catholic talking with one of her friends, who is also a very devout Catholic about this issue. Her friend was saying that she doesn’t think he deserves the title because of the way he let Catholicism “crumble” in western civilization, mainly by not cracking down on borderline heretical bishops and cardinals. This is very apparent in the U.S. where bishops such as Raymond Hunthausen were allowed to virtually destroy the Archdiocese of Seattle with his liberal theology and indoctrination. We’re still a long, long way from recovering out here. Allowing corrupt bishops in the U.S. and around the world to preach whatever they want, ordain whomever they want without fear of reprisal has done vast amounts of harm to the Church, more so even than the sex abuse scandals (which neither my mom’s friend nor myself fault John Paul II with). Obviously you can’t expect the pope to know what is going on at every single church around the world, but when whole archdioceses are falling away, it seems very wrong to just stand by and let that happen.

I felt my mom’s friend made some very compelling points and am interested to see what others think.
 
JPII did a whole lot and tho’ he wasn’t a great administrator he was great in a number of other areas.
BTW, I’m very aware of Hunthausen’s problems. In '97 (I think) he was asked to step aside - at that point he was allowed to be a “co” bishop, however I think that he didn’t actually do much then and it was in order (probably) that the faithful not learn rebellion toward their bishop. Possibly too little, too late, however JPII had the whole world as a responsibility and maybe some dissent within some vatican positions, too. He also ordained Mahoney as cardinal - I don’t understand that, but I don’t know what he was up against.:confused:
 
John Paul II seems, like the other two popes Leo and Gregory, was given the sobriquet “the Great” by popular acclaim.

And for that matter, that’s how Ss Leo and Gregory were canonized.
 
If we can ever get past all the emotion and sentimentality regarding this man, I think we’ll come to realise that his long reign was not a very positive one for the church.
 
Can you imagine being the head of country with over one billion people? There were many problems in the the Church before John Paul became the Pope. Every person have been given different talents and gifts from God. Remember the Holy Spirit chose him to lead the Church.

What many saw in John Paul was his humility. His love for all people. I feel that just as any employer hires someone to do a job, he really has no idea how the person will really turn out doing the job. I don’t think the Pope had any idea what Cardinal Mahoney was really like. Also the Pope is so far from us that there is no way he would really know all the Bishops and their agendas.

He brought many people into the Church by his love. Maybe that is the reason the Lord chose him. There is a time for each Pope to be elected. It is a mystery to us. The new Pope was very close to John Paul. He is a very different person than John Paul and maybe his gift is bringing reverence back into the Church. Remember our Holy Father is led by the Holy Spirit and I feel that God chooses the right person for the time.

Pope John Paul II also had the respect and love of many outside the Church. Pope Benedict is also being critized by many. So in my opinion it is a no win situation. We need to love and respect whoever God places in such a position.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
It hurts me to say this, and it’s just an opinion, but I think that in a way the biggest fault of JP2 was his LACK of humility. Just an opinion from someone who loved him for many years and still does, but I think that he was almost too concentrated on his own particular gifts, and that this might explain his failures in some areas.

For example, I have no doubt that he was a very spiritual man - a gifted mystic. But this possibly gave him almost too much of a “bird’s eye view” of the Church and the world, such that he didn’t realize the importance of the nitty-gritty - the scandals that were being done in local parishes that affected Joe Blow, the danger of false, seemingly dismissable philosophies, the predispositions toward particular sins of priests and bishops, the psychological effects of some novel Catholic movements upon people who wanted comfort rather than the Cross, a too-spiritualized view of secular cultural trends such as politics, philosophy, music, art etc, and too little an appreciation of the need of ordinary Catholics unlike him for a sense of stability and security that can be found in past tradition.

When you look at him this way, you can see why he was a “poor administrator”, and yet always an inspiring “witness to hope”. I can’t help thinking that God sent him his long illness to testify that suffering, weakness, memory, fidelity and stability were fundamental to the Catholic faith, along with all of the more obvious charisms that he showed to the world.

As much as I loved JP2, and think that he was chosen by God to get the Church through a terrible time, I think that Benedict is a “better Pope” by a long way, and if JP2 is “Great”, then Benedict surely is as well.
 
I think it is really just too soon to tell. I would love for the rules on when the canonization process can begin to be re-instated for JP II. And I think assigning “the Great” or any other title is very premature. Wait about a century or so and let’s see where we are then.

Chris
 
Seamus_L said:
If we can ever get past all the emotion and sentimentality regarding this man, I think we’ll come to realise that his long reign was not a very positive one for the church.
Click to expand...
I agree. What pains me the most about his pontificate are the things that he did know about and did nothing to remedy. 😦

And even though it is all the more too soon to tell, I think it may very well be that history will mark Benedict XVI as truly great and his predecessor not so.
 
People often claim that popes aren’t forceful enough when it comes to dealing with bishops who aren’t towing the line. A very real concern for Rome is, though, that if you pull a bishop from a diocese, he is still a legitimate bishop and can still ordain priest and, with another bishop, can ordain bishops (need I mention the sspx controversy?). The pope has to know how to walk a fine line when dealing with wayward bishops or the result can be a schism. Eventually, bishops reach retirement age or even die, so the time will come when they will be replaced. It makes it awfully hard for a new bishop to come in a try to pick up the pieces, but it is probably better than having an entire parish or even diocese striking off on their own.

For myself, I’m not going to judge Pope John Paul II. I’m sure he had to deal with issues on a daily basis that we can’t even imagine.
 
I would love for the rules on when the canonization process can begin to be re-instated for JP II.

His cause is already opened. Deal with it.
 
I’m very aware of Hunthausen’s problems. In '97 (I think) he was asked to step aside - at that point he was allowed to be a “co” bishop,
Click to expand...
Actually, Hunthasuen’s problems were in 1986.
 
Timothysis said:
For myself, I’m not going to judge Pope John Paul II. I’m sure he had to deal with issues on a daily basis that we can’t even imagine.
Click to expand...
Tim, I would like to ask you in all sincerity, what do you think is the appropriate response in a circumstance like the one we’re facing, in which certain Catholics are saying “Oh, that man was great-a saint-etc.”, while other Catholics say, “Hey, wait a minute, would a great and holy man do or say [fill in the blank]?”

I always feel torn about this. I’m cognizant of the maxim de mortuis nil nisi bonum, concerning the dead speak nothing but good. But there would seem to be a real danger in proclaiming as “great” and “holy”, things which aren’t. We can easily end up changing our entire perception of what those words mean in a Catholic context if they are misapplied. Isn’t there a matter of truth at stake?

And yet (for those on the other side), isn’t it too easy for the whole exchange to degenerate into something truly scandalous by throwing out accusations in order to refute claims of greatness and sanctity?

I struggle with this dynamic quite a bit. I’d value your opinion. (And that of others, of course.)
 
DavidPalm said:
I agree. What pains me the most about his pontificate are the things that he did know about and did nothing to remedy. 😦

And even though it is all the more too soon to tell, I think it may very well be that history will mark Benedict XVI as truly great and his predecessor not so.
Click to expand...
Well, David, I’m on board with that opinion (big surprise there. ;))

But I’m going to add what may be a somber note: the two “forgotten” Popes of the twentieth century. PP Benedict XV had to deal with a lot of division that resulted from the preceding years, and did the job quite admirably, yet he is all too often relegated to a footnote in history. And then we have PP Pius XI who was, perhaps, one of the greatest scholars and diplomats to occupy the Chair in recent memory. He was, perhaps, a bit of a “bookworm,” but was nonetheless a kind, loving, and very holy man, who also had a great love and respect for the East. But here again, he generally rates what amounts to a footnote.

I sincerely hope PP Benedict XVI will not suffer the same unjust fate.
 
DavidPalm said:
Tim, I would like to ask you in all sincerity, what do you think is the appropriate response in a circumstance like the one we’re facing, in which certain Catholics are saying “Oh, that man was great-a saint-etc.”, while other Catholics say, “Hey, wait a minute, would a great and holy man do or say [fill in the blank]?”

I always feel torn about this. I’m cognizant of the maxim de mortuis nil nisi bonum, concerning the dead speak nothing but good. But there would seem to be a real danger in proclaiming as “great” and “holy”, things which aren’t. We can easily end up changing our entire perception of what those words mean in a Catholic context if they are misapplied. Isn’t there a matter of truth at stake?

And yet (for those on the other side), isn’t it too easy for the whole exchange to degenerate into something truly scandalous by throwing out accusations in order to refute claims of greatness and sanctity?

I struggle with this dynamic quite a bit. I’d value your opinion. (And that of others, of course.)
Click to expand...
David,

My feeling is, time will tell. The addition of “The Great” to someone’s name is usually done after time and the dust has settled. I certainly agree about the danger of misapplying such a title to someone…actually, I think it rather silly in this day and age.

It has been my experience that even the greatest figures of history have had their darker sides. Of course, we all do and there is always the danger of holding someone up as a role model and then discovering that they have more than just a few cracks in their marble edifice. I think we should let the late Pope John Paul II rest in peace and let a later generation determine his “greatness.” Remember that the Church usually thinks in terms of years, which greatly contradicts our modern desire for instant gratification.
 
Timothysis said:
It has been my experience that even the greatest figures of history have had their darker sides. Of course, we all do and there is always the danger of holding someone up as a role model and then discovering that they have more than just a few cracks in their marble edifice. I think we should let the late Pope John Paul II rest in peace and let a later generation determine his “greatness.” Remember that the Church usually thinks in terms of years, which greatly contradicts our modern desire for instant gratification.
Click to expand...
Very sensible. And when individuals are spouting what one considers to be dangerous nonsense? Well, this is where I get into trouble. I feel compelled to “set 'em straight”. But how is that my job?

Still, I get queasy when I think about a canonization of the late pontiff. People nowadays are just so quick to say, “Well see, St. Such and Such did it so it must be okay.” There are just so many things done and said that would be very difficult to have justified in that way. But as you say, time will tell and God is still in charge.
 
=Bataar;4930396]What are your opinions of John Paul II being given this title? I happened to overhear my mother who is a very devout Catholic talking with one of her friends, who is also a very devout Catholic about this issue. Her friend was saying that she doesn’t think he deserves the title because of the way he let Catholicism “crumble” in western civilization, mainly by not cracking down on borderline heretical bishops and cardinals. This is very apparent in the U.S. where bishops such as Raymond Hunthausen were allowed to virtually destroy the Archdiocese of Seattle with his liberal theology and indoctrination. We’re still a long, long way from recovering out here. Allowing corrupt bishops in the U.S. and around the world to preach whatever they want, ordain whomever they want without fear of reprisal has done vast amounts of harm to the Church, more so even than the sex abuse scandals (which neither my mom’s friend nor myself fault John Paul II with). Obviously you can’t expect the pope to know what is going on at every single church around the world, but when whole archdioceses are falling away, it seems very wrong to just stand by and let that happen.
Click to expand...
I felt my mom’s friend made some very compelling points and am interested to see what others think.
Click to expand...
My dear friend in Christ,

A few thoughts.

First as one who has read (some mutiple times) all of the *Encyclicals and Apolostolic Letters *of John PauII, he certainly is a teacher of unique and emense talent. So because of his ability to teach the faith and share the faith, I agree that the title of GREAT is quite appropriate, completely fitting and I pray will happen.

Your mothers friend and I share a very common concern on the issue of disipline of errant bishops and priest.

A dear and now departed priest friend and mentor of mine was a Papal Leget from 1980 until he died in December of 2000.

A large part of his job in working for the Pope, was to meet with these erreant. disobedient bishops and try to convience them of the error of their way’s.

He shared with us that only about 10% of America’s bishops were faithful and loyal to Rome, and the Papacy, and were themselves truly members of the Roman Catholic Magerterium.

Last year about 25% to 30% of the bishops we now have, spoke out in the public press on the issue of Abortion, and voting for a Pro-Life candidate. It is my prayerful hope that this reflects what we see as a new trend towards obedience to Rome.

I have discussed this issue with several priest, who advised me that their was and is a great fear that if Rome comes down hard (beleive me they are working behind the scenes) on this large number of disobedient, know more and know better bishops, that they may well split from the RCC, taking with them countless guible and innocent souls.

The Catholic Church in America, could become the The American catholic church!

Given the effects of the changes they have wrought, very low Mass attendance, little use of Confession, and what they have done to the prieshood and religious life, one might ask if the damage has not already been done?

The issue is a very complex one, and is best left in the hands of our Pope, who is afterall inspired by the Holy Spirit.

One always is at risk in judging others actions, eventhough that is what Christ tells us to do. Seldom do we have even close to sufficient information and facts to be judgemental on Universal Catholic Issues.

I too come from an archdiocese that is riddled with Liberalism, and has a “catholic” weekly paper that often prints without rebuttal, evident Heresies.Many letters to the editor and the bushop were ignored.

So, yes Pope Jihn Paul II was and is GREAT. How he managed to accomplish what little he was able to do was a direct intervention by our Loving God.

The answer lies in God’s hands!

Satan may win the battle, BUT we know he loses the war!
 
PJM said:
The issue is a very complex one, and is best left in the hands of our Pope, who is afterall inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Sigh. This is what I mean. No Pope is “inspired of the Holy Spirit”, except St. Peter when he wrote his two epistles.

All Popes receive graces of state, but they do not have to cooperate with them and sometimes they don’t. With due respect, I think speaking of Popes being “inspired by the Holy Spirit” is not only theologically incorrect but is dangerous, because then we end up trying to justify every word and action of a Pope because “he’s inspired by the Holy Spirit so it must be okay”. I’ve seen it happen, especially with regard to John Paul II.
 
DavidPalm said:
Very sensible. And when individuals are spouting what one considers to be dangerous nonsense? Well, this is where I get into trouble. I feel compelled to “set 'em straight”. But how is that my job?

Still, I get queasy when I think about a canonization of the late pontiff. People nowadays are just so quick to say, “Well see, St. Such and Such did it so it must be okay.” There are just so many things done and said that would be very difficult to have justified in that way. But as you say, time will tell and God is still in charge.
Click to expand...
I agree, I really do. I really don’t even think it necessary to canonize the late pontiff. Canonizations of today have kind of turned into a Church celebrity type thing, if you know what I mean. I wasn’t very fond of Pope John Paul’s habit of canonizing people nearly en masse. The saints are supposed to be held up as an example but John Paul gave us so many it nearly became dizzying! Still, it must be an awesome burden to be pope. I recall reading that at one time Pope John Paul II seriously considered abdicating. That would have been very interesting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top