John Pipers "The Passion of Christ"

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OpusDei:

Thanks for the quotes. I found them quite helpful. The belief in Mary’s bodily assumption is found in the Church during the 6th, 7th, and 8th + centuries. But the early Church did not hold (or know of) that teaching. Epiphanius in 377 AD says that “no one” really knows what happened to Mary:
But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40).
If this was an apostolic tradition handed down and preserved, I wonder why Epiphanius and the rest of his contemporaries knew not of Mary’s bodily assumption? In fact, Roman Catholic historians admit that there is no early patristic evidence for this doctrine.
In these conditions we shall not ask patristic thought—as some theologians still do today under one form or another—to transmit to us, with respect to the Assumption, a truth received as such in the beginning and faithfully communicated to subsequent ages. Such an attitude would not fit the facts…Patristic thought has not, in this instance, played the role of a sheer instrument of transmission’ (Juniper B. Carol, O.F.M., ed., Mariology, Vol. I (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1955), p. 154).

The first recorded appearance of Mary’s assumption in history is found in an apocryphal gospel called the Transitus Beatae Mariae dated near the end of the 5th century, which Pope Gelasius, between 494 to 496 AD (along with other writtings) declared heretical. Here is where the assumption of Mary doctrine finds its roots historically.

There is much more to be said about this: I refer you to the following article: The Assumption of Mary by William Webster. I believe this demonstrates how badly Rome has erred in her teaching.
 
I do. I honor Mary just as the New Testament honors her.

Really? I’d like to hear about how you do this. But gomez didn’t suggest that you honor like the NT does, he suggested that you honor her like her Son does. You (I think you are male?) are her son too because of Christ’s words, yes, in Scripture:

John 19:26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the* disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, ** behold, your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” From that hour the disciple took her into his** own household*

I am not a skilled debater in theology, but I can tell you what I have come to understand about this passage. First, Jesus is calling his mother “woman” in reference to her role as the Second Eve who was also called “woman.” Apparently, this particular use of the word woman is a peculiar word and so it is significant. Is God careless in what words He chooses to use?

Jesus is calling her the mother of the world, of the new covenant (Eve was the mother of the old world, the old covenant) of the new life that is being brought forth from His saving work on the cross. By her own Son, Mary is being called the mother of the Church.

John represents us, the Church in this passage. Jesus doesn’t say, “John, treat her like your mother.” No, He says, “Behold, your mother!” What did John do? Did he say, “I’ll honor her just as the New Testament honors her.” No, “*From that hour the disciple took her into his **own household.” *Have you taken Mary into your own household?

In your house, I suppose you might have a picture of your own mother because you love and honor her. Do you have a picture of Mary, your other mother that Jesus gave you, in your household as part of honoring her just like the New Testament? Why or why not? Do you celebrate your mother’s birthday to honor her? Do you celebrate Mary’s birthday to honor her just like the New Testament honors her? If your mother has “fallen asleep in the Lord,” do you honor her memory on the particular day she died? Do you honor Mary’s memory and the day that we honor her falling asleep in the Lord?

I think it is only biblical to honor Mary at least as much as you honor your own earthly mother.
 
Sorry, go Leafs go, I didn’t mean to add to the wayward tangent of this thread. I’d forgotten what the original question was before I got to the end!

I also received this book from an ex-Catholic friend of ours. I think it was part of a mass-evangelization effort from his church and therefore it seemed to me to be a tract and I didn’t read it.

It looked like it was trying to cash in on the tie in to the Mel Gibson movie yet direct readers away from all that tasteless Catholic theology in the film. Pet peeve #1: movie tie-in marketing. Pet peeve #2: putting a Protestant spin on a very Catholic work.

Anyway, I’m not much help. How about you read it and then make a book report for us? If you say it’s great, I’ll dig out my copy and read it too and compare notes. Deal?
 
New Life,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. We seem to be at an impasse due to YOUR definition of early church. Although, I cited the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD), you stated that no evidence of belief in the Assumption existed before the 6th century.

As I stated in an earlier post, where do you draw the line? I certainly feel that statements made in the 5th, 6th, 7th and eventual centuries document a sustained belief in the Assumption. Depending on where you draw the line in history, you can eliminate the Canon of Scripture, statements on the Divinity of the Holy Spirit and the two natures of Christ; which were ALL contested well beyond the 5th century, I might add!

The Truth is found in the Catholic Church, founded upon the rock, Peter, and his apostles, which continues today in direct succession and was assured, by Christ, that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her.

Peace in Christ!
 
I think the biggest rebuttal to Protestants on the bodily assumption and honouring of Mary would be to quote from the Reformers, especially Luther.

‘She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin…God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil…God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.’

This is from Luther’s Works(American edition, vol43, p40, ed.H.Lehmann, Fortress, 1968). By now I can imagine some may be shaking their heads in disbelief, so I will quote another work.

‘Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her.’ Commentary on the Magnificat.

So if the great reformer gives so much respect to Mary, it also can be seen that Luther himself believed in the Assumption( God guarded her from all that might be hurtful to her.) God will not let his beloved see decay. Yes, it is hard to believe such a statement, but when did God say that believing is easy? The truth shall set us free, and the truth of God choosing a pure Woman for his work of salvation supports the most important truth about the divinity of our Lord. To renounce Mary’s honour is to renounce Christ’s divinity.

Oh, by the way please get back to topic, since you have stray away from it. Thanks.
 
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OpusDei:
New Life,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. We seem to be at an impasse due to YOUR definition of early church. Although, I cited the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD), you stated that no evidence of belief in the Assumption existed before the 6th century.
I would like to see those quotes from the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) which discuss the assumption of Mary. Maybe you can provide the link or citation. There is a difference in having a church father personally hold to a belief (i.e. the assumption), and having the church as a whole believe something as doctrine. Wouldn’t you agree? In light of the quote I provided from Epiphanius in 377 AD, how can you claim this is an apostolic tradition passed down from the apostles when “no one” during his day even knew about Mary’s supposed assumption?
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OpusDei:
Depending on where you draw the line in history, you can eliminate the Canon of Scripture, statements on the Divinity of the Holy Spirit and the two natures of Christ; which were ALL contested well beyond the 5th century, I might add!
These things (deity of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, dual nature of Christ) are found clearly in the Scriptures. Plus, the early church (that is, the church 100, 200, 300 + years after Christ) believed and spoke tremendously concerning these things. The establishment of the NT was a developing process whereby God lead the early church to recognize his infallible and inspired word. The same cannot be said of Mary’s assumption, where Scripture doesn’t teach it, nor did the early church fathers ever teach it. In fact, the first time this teaching is found is in heretical writtings:

“The first express witness in the West to a genuine assumption comes to us in an apocryphal Gospel, the Transitus Beatae Mariae of Pseudo-Melito” (Juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. l (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), p. 149).

The idea of the bodily assumption of Mary is first expressed in certain transitus–narratives of the fifth and sixth centuries. Even though these are apocryphal they bear witness to the faith of the generation in which they were written despite their legendary clothing. The first Church author to speak of the bodily ascension of Mary, in association with an apocryphal transitus B.M.V., is St. Gregory of Tours’ (Ludwig Ott, *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma *(Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp. 209–210).

We are at an impasse (as you have said): you believe it because the Church says so. God bless you!
 
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Dismas:
I think the biggest rebuttal to Protestants on the bodily assumption and honouring of Mary would be to quote from the Reformers, especially Luther.
Protestants don’t hold the reformers to be infallible. So much for a rebuttal. The Scriptues don’t teach Mary’s assumption, neither did the early chruch. And the first time this “teaching” was ever found is in a apocryphal gospel declared heretical, which was later condemned by Pope Gelasius! Roman Catholic scholars admit this.
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Dismas:
So if the great reformer gives so much respect to Mary, it also can be seen that Luther himself believed in the Assumption( God guarded her from all that might be hurtful to her.) God will not let his beloved see decay. Yes, it is hard to believe such a statement, but when did God say that believing is easy? The truth shall set us free, and the truth of God choosing a pure Woman for his work of salvation supports the most important truth about the divinity of our Lord. To renounce Mary’s honour is to renounce Christ’s divinity.
I’m not sure how you can claim Luthers statement “God guarded her from all that might be hurtful to her” meant “God bodily assumed her into heaven because being buried is hurtful.” Maybe you can find clear statements from Luther saying that he believed Mary was bodily assumped. That would be helpful. Nevertheless, no Protestant holds Luther to be inspired or infallible. We disagree with him and others on many points. As far as honoring Mary and respecting her - let’s honor her as the Bible does. Let’s not add titles and teachings that are not in Scripture. That’s what’s most dishonoring.
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Dismas:
Oh, by the way please get back to topic, since you have stray away from it. Thanks.
Sure. You can read up to 20 pages of Piper’s book for free online:
www.passion-book.com

Enjoy.
 
When I speak of the early church I do realize I’m speaking of the Catholic (i.e. universal) Church. I have no problem with that. The reason I differentiate between the “early church” and the “Roman Catholic Church” of today is because they are not identical. Unlike the early church, modern Roman Catholicism has seriously distorted the gospel with man made doctrine.
Can you be more specific as to what man-made doctrine the Roman Catholic Church made so we can make clarifications?
Let’s get one example, the early Catholic Church that you are referring believes in the Eucharist as the true Body and Blood of the Lord (Body, Blood , Soul and Divinity). The Roman Catholic Church holds that position, and believes it! Probably you and your church changes that doctrine and ALL the reformers/protestants. You only believe it to be a symbol. If that’s true, who changes the doctrine??? Did the Lord said on the last supper, “this is the symbol of my Body,… this is the symbol of my Blood…”???

continued…
 
New Life,

Let me also explain to you since it seems that you don’t know the truth behind the term “roman” in the Catholic Church. I don’t know why you dislike the term “Roman” so much since it was the very protestants themselves who added that to the title of the Catholic Church. The reason behind it? It’s simple, they didn’t like the pope and the Catholic Church! They hate the papists that exists in the Catholic Church!

By the way, if you don’t know the official title of the “Roman Catholic Church” that you dislike I’ll tell you right now— it’s still the “Catholic Church.”😃 The prefis “Roman” is an unofficial title. It’s just became popular because, and by the way thanks to, the Protestants themselves.😉
Get it???:dancing:

:blessyou:

Pio
 
New Life,

You haven’t answered my newest post. Who changes the doctrine???

Pio
 
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New_Life:
Philip did what a true protestant would do - expound the Scriptures faithfully: “The Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus” (Acts 8:35, ESV).
Hmmmm… “beginning” … that must mean there was other instruction … oral instruction … not SOLELY scripture.
 
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hlgomez:
New Life,

You haven’t answered my newest post. Who changes the doctrine???

Pio
I was asked to stay on the topic of this thread. If you want me to answer your objections, start a new thread and I will respond there.
 
New Life,

I have posted a new thread about the changes of doctrines, and by whom. You may want to comment…

Pio
 
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