John the Baptist born without original sin??

  • Thread starter Thread starter carol_marie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
metal1633:
Here I quote the relevant portion from that page…

“Then was accomplished the prophetic utterance of the angel that the child should “be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb”. Now as the presence of any sin whatever is incompatible with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the soul, it follows that at this moment John was cleansed from the stain of original sin.”
Click to expand...
Once again metal1633 shows his metal!

I wish that I knew half as much as metal1633.
 
40.png
Hesychios:
Once again metal1633 shows his metal!

I wish that I knew half as much as metal1633.
Click to expand...
Congrats go to the author not to the one who quotes. I just went to the page and searched for the relevant portion.
 
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello tru_devotion!

I have always admired you postings because the reflect your interest in Truth, over mythology (which we sometimes see foisted as Catholic belief).
40.png
tru_dvotion:
Hesychios,

That is all great about the eastern and western applications. But then let me ask you a question. If he is truly mirroring our Lady, why was he not assumed to heaven as Our Lady was? First I would like to say the John the Forerunner (or Baptist) is not mirroring Our Lady. Their stories are quite different and they cannot be compared.

In fact, a good argument could be made that John was understood as sinless well before Mary was even thought of as the Immaculate Conception, Gate of Heaven, etc.

Mary was not recognised by Catholics and Orthodox as sinless or special until Christology was settled, Before then the church was not even certain what the true nature of Jesus was. Was He fully Divine? Was He fully human? Was He both human and divine? Did He really die on the cross? Was He really resurrected in the flesh?

Mary became known to us as the God-bearer (Theotokos) once we understood that Jesus was fully Divine and fully human. The Christological debates raged on for generations and resulted in numerous schisms.

John was already understood to be special in scripture and the early church probably saw him as the great example to be followed, the best saint to be prayed to for help and consolation.

I am speculating here, but his icon may have been over the altar interceeding for us before Mary’s was, who can say?
Click to expand...
Once we were all agreed that Jesus was fully Divine as well as fully human, it was inconceivable to us that the Ark of the Covenant would be just an ordinary, sinful creature like the rest of us. The Fathers began to extol her virtues as well!

why was he not assumed to heaven as Our Lady was? He was not; therefore the judgment of original sin applied to him the same as to anybody else. Interestingly, the church (and scripture) is silent on this topic.

Was he assumed into heaven? We have had no interest in the subject in the past, so we don’t know. The only way we know that Mary was assumed is that the tomb was opened and she was missing, so the odds are in favor of her being assumed.

However, Elijah was assumed into heaven, even our Jewish precursors will agree to that, it was witnessed. Anything is possible, and we cannot know all things.

I am not attacking Mary our mother. We are only looking for Truth here, which cannot hurt the Faith.
 
metal1633 said:
Neither Christ nor his Blessed Mother were exempt from death. They both died.
Click to expand...
Yes that is true, but death had no permanent hold on them. Christ ascended into heaven in his glorified body and Mary was bodily was assumed into heaven.
Click to expand...
 
40.png
Hesychios:
I am surprised that no Eastern Catholics or Orthodox have jumped on this.
Click to expand...
Well, as you know, we don’t have the docrine of Original Sin so I’ve got nothing to add to the discussion which is exploring the nuances within that doctrine, but I have found it interesting to read.

There are a couple of things posted here that I thought about commenting on, but I don’t want to distract from Carol Marie’s question.
 
40.png
Hesychios:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello tru_devotion!

I have always admired you postings because the reflect your interest in Truth, over mythology (which we sometimes see foisted as Catholic belief).

First I would like to say the John the Forerunner (or Baptist) is not mirroring Our Lady. Their stories are quite different and they cannot be compared.

In fact, a good argument could be made that John was understood as sinless well before Mary was even thought of as the Immaculate Conception, Gate of Heaven, etc.

Mary was not recognised by Catholics and Orthodox as sinless or special until Christology was settled, Before then the church was not even certain what the true nature of Jesus was. Was He fully Divine? Was He fully human? Was He both human and divine? Did He really die on the cross? Was He really resurrected in the flesh?

Mary became known to us as the God-bearer (Theotokos) once we understood that Jesus was fully Divine and fully human. The Christological debates raged on for generations and resulted in numerous schisms.

John was already understood to be special in scripture and the early church probably saw him as the great example to be followed, the best saint to be prayed to for help and consolation.

I am speculating here, but his icon may have been over the altar interceeding for us before Mary’s was, who can say?
Click to expand...
Once we were all agreed that Jesus was fully Divine as well as fully human, it was inconceivable to us that the Ark of the Covenant would be just an ordinary, sinful creature like the rest of us. The Fathers began to extol her virtues as well!

Interestingly, the church (and scripture) is silent on this topic.

Was he assumed into heaven? We have had no interest in the subject in the past, so we don’t know. The only way we know that Mary was assumed is that the tomb was opened and she was missing, so the odds are in favor of her being assumed.

However, Elijah was assumed into heaven, even our Jewish precursors will agree to that, it was witnessed. Anything is possible, and we cannot know all things.

I am not attacking Mary our mother. We are only looking for Truth here, which cannot hurt the Faith.

John the Baptist was not assumed into heaven. I myself have beheld his relics.
 
Dear Hesychios,

You write:

“I am not attacking Mary our mother. We are only looking for Truth here, which cannot hurt the Faith.”

I must be transparent or you are perceptive, or maybe I am transparent and you are perceptive at the same time.

This topic caught me off guard because I am not well versed in John, obviously… I believe I reacted on an emotional level rather than with logic when I saw the site in question. Normally, I would have examined the words, and what they mean, but I did not do that this time. I thought about why it annoyed me, I even went back to re-read it after the brother’s post and at this time I saw nothing wrong with it theologically. My first reaction was obviously clouded with my devotion to our Mother. At the same time though, there is a little bit of a bias by the “reporter” when he brings attention to one item and disregards the rest. In this case, he expanded on the similarities between John, Jesus and Mary but did not clarify the differences. And maybe he did not needed to do that, if he was only “reporting” to the equally converted and knowledgeable, but that is not the case with apologetics, because all sorts of people read these sites and refer to them. I would have preferred if the writer stuck to the facts or if he was expanding on one item, he should have been expanding on the rest as well. It is rather like what goes on with the news, when an emphasis is added to just one segment of the truth; it can alter it for the reader. What you wrote about the historical approach in this topic is very interesting and it compels me to look into it deeper. Thanks.
 
40.png
tru_dvotion:
Which would have made him at his birth exactly like a newly baptized infant. Or would it not?
Click to expand...
Even before his birth. But yes you are correct.
 
One statement that I recall is that there are three people whose birthdays are feasts in the Church, and that those are the people who were born w/o original sin, and the celebration of the birthdays is because they were born w/o original sin. (Conceived w/o doesn’t apply to John the Baptist, though.)
 
Well I am glad that is cleared up. Thank you Brother Rich. I always heard that he was born without original sin but was unsure on the teachings of that, so I have never really went into it in teaching the children at school. Years ago I mentioned something but realized to a little child it was beyond their understanding. So I stuck with Mary and Jesus knowing that both conceptions were without original sin.
 
carol marie:
Thanks to all who responded. I can see from scripture that something miraculous happened while he was in the womb so I’ll just file that in the catagory of a God-thing and leave it at that. I agree that God can do whatever he wants, who am I to say that He couldn’t have baptized John if he wanted to? It just goes on the list of yet another thing that, although I’ve been a Christian for years, and read the Bible front & back, I’ve never heard of. (Makes me feel a little better that some of you Catholics have never heard of it either) It seems that you can just accept whatever the church says as it comes your way. I envy that trust. I get this knee jerk response of: PROVE IT! THAT’S A BUNCH OF MADE UP GARBAGE! Which is so irrational because over the past two years I’ve been able to see the truth in SO MANY Catholic teachings… why am I ready to jump ship at as soon as I come across something new that my mind can’t comprehend?
Click to expand...
Fortunately for us all the Catholic Church has had 2,000 years of being led by the Holy Spirit and all sorts of spirit filled people and their testimony and study. That makes it a lot easier to accept on face value, but that should not obviate ongoing catachesis.

My nosy opinion is that you are just a bit stressed because you are getting a big dose of the Truth and that’s a life changing event (i’m a revert so I sorta know where you’re coming from)

from Psalm 46: “Be still, and know that I am God”

May God bless us both.

~mike

ps I didn’t realize this about St. John till you brought it up, either. I better go hit the books :o
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top