John the Baptist born without original sin?

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Randy_Carson said:
This possiblity of sinlessness extends to John the Baptist’s parents, also.

“5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.”

If they observed the law blamelessly, how could they have sinned?
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Except for when Zechariah doubted and was deaf until John’s birth because of it. Elizabeth doubted as her statement to Mary indicates.
 
So you really thought that my reply was meant to accuse Christ as having sinned as opposed to pointing out that the leagalistic literal interpretation that the bible says (and means) that absolutely everyone has sinned was an incorrect reading?

Chuck
myfavoritmartin said:
Believe that at your own peril if you wish. This is our Saviour and Lord speaking. I find it a mockery to even bring our Lord into this conversation, in this manner.
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myfavoritmartin said:
Can anyone explain this???
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FCEGM said:
The Lord’s meaning has to do with the Old Covenant vs. the New, for, in the very next line, He says how “the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (that is, the New Covenant) is greater than him [John].” Mary is part of that New Covenant, and the greatest member of this New Covenant. She is the very image of the Church (per Rev. 12:1-3) and the Ark of the New Covenant itself (per Luke 1:39-56 compared to 2 Sam. 6:2-11). Thus, Jesus is not saying that John is greater than Mary or any other NT saint, but that he is the greatest and most sinless saint of the Old Covenant - the last prophet of the Old Covenant, and their culmination: the New Elijiah.
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You guys hold Mary higher, but she was born 14-16 years before John and Jesus says this…
among those born of women, there has not yet risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Seems the church here is at odds with our Saviour, a lil uncomfortable to say the least…

If one has not risen greater than John but Mary is older what is Christ saying??? It seems pretty obvious doesn’t it???
Yet the church holds her higher…
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                 Originally Posted by **FCEGM**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2256644#post2256644)                 
             *The Lord's meaning has to do with the Old Covenant vs. the New, for, in the very next line, He says how "the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (that is, the New Covenant) is greater than him [John]." Mary is part of that New Covenant, and the greatest member of this New Covenant. She is the very image of the Church (per Rev. 12:1-3) and the Ark of the New Covenant itself (per Luke 1:39-56 compared to 2 Sam. 6:2-11). Thus, Jesus is not saying that John is greater than Mary or any other NT saint, but that he is the greatest and most sinless saint of the Old Covenant - the last prophet of the Old Covenant, and their culmination: the New Elijiah.*
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*So, let me get my hands around this, because this is bothered me also.

“None born of a woman” **means those that are still under the Old Covenant, or more accurately, those who are not yet part of the New Covenant.

But, “the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than him [John].” are those that have been Baptized into the New Covenant. And, because John can not boast of his works, he certainly cannot be considered greater than someone who has been lifted up by Christ

Thank you guys so much for illuminating this!!!
 
FCEGM said:
Yup! 🙂
The Lord’s meaning has to do with the Old Covenant vs. the New, for, in the very next line, He says how “the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (that is, the New Covenant) is greater than him [John].” Mary is part of that New Covenant, and the greatest member of this New Covenant. She is the very image of the Church (per Rev. 12:1-3) and the Ark of the New Covenant itself (per Luke 1:39-56 compared to 2 Sam. 6:2-11). Thus, Jesus is not saying that John is greater than Mary or any other NT saint, but that he is the greatest and most sinless saint of the Old Covenant - the last prophet of the Old Covenant, and their culmination: the New Elijiah.
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Really? So in essence your saying John the Baptiat was not born again? but Mary was?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Really? So in essence your saying John the Baptiat was not born again? but Mary was?
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No, that is not that essence of what I am saying. It is possible, given Luke 1:15-16, that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb of Elizabeth (i.e., though conceived with Original Sin, he was freed from it before his birth), he didn’t, however - unlike the Blessed Virgin Mary and others - live to witness and experience in his life the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Christ and thus enter into the age of the New Law in Christ and the Covenant He established with His Blood, the members of which Covenant are joined to Him and with Him in His Church. John the Baptist, the culmination of the OT prophets is as “born again” as all the saints and prophets of the OT to whom Our Lord preached to in the “Limbo of the Fathers” (cf. 1 Pet. 3:18).

How, though, according to a Protestant understanding (which I realize will vary) would John the Baptist have been “born again” if the redemption and salvation in Christ had not (yet) been accomplished by His Passion, Death and Resurrection?
 
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