John the Baptist greater than Mary?

[Startingcatholic]

Is Matthew 11:11 Jesus says “Amen I say to you, among those born of women, there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”. Is Jesus implying that John is Greater than Mary. Wouldn’t that disprove Mary being sinless and perfect?

 

[Anesti33]

I think that’s an interesting, but incorrect interpretation. This saying could be understood in multiple ways. The best thing to do is to ask how the Church sees John the Baptist, and compare and contrast that with how she sees the Blessed Virgin Mary. I think that will be very informative, and definitively prove wrong your interpretation.

 

[stpurl]

No and no.

 

[Startingcatholic]

Thanks! I don’t actually believe John the Baptist was greater than Mary by any means. I was just wondering if this was something brought up in discussion before me. I always interpreted it as him being the greatest prophet among men. But even that I’m not sure in!

 

[Anesti33]

Thanks! I don’t actually believe John the Baptist was greater than Mary by any means. I was just wondering if this was something brought up in discussion before me. I always interpreted it as him being the greatest prophet among men. But even that I’m not sure in!

The Church sees John the Baptist as the Forerunner to Christ. This is his title in the Byzantine Rite. In fact he is depicted in Byzantine iconography with a pair of wings. (Angels, on the other hand, have six.)

John’s Nativity comes at a curious place in the Church/secular calendar: The Summer Solstice. Why is it placed here? It signifies that John prayed, “He must increase, I must decrease.” Therefore, John’s light decreases as we approach Christmas, the Winter Solstice, the darkest night of the year. Christ’s light, paradoxically, increases and becomes full at His birth.

Mary is John’s cousin, and her relationship with Elizabeth can be plainly known from the Gospel of St. Luke. John leapt in the womb at Christ’s arrival in utero, and pious tradition holds that John was sanctified at that moment and cleansed of Original Sin. This is surely why Jesus says there is no-one greater born of woman.

John is actually an Old Testament prophet. He is the “voice crying out in the wilderness” predicted by Isaiah. John prefigured Christ, and as a proto-martyr, defended Christ’s teaching on marriage in the face of cruel despots. John is the only saint whose Nativity and Martyrdom we celebrate with feast days on the General Roman Calendar.

 

[twf]

Note that Our Lord goes on to say that the “least in the Kingdom of Heaven” is greater than St John… in that he didn’t experience the sacraments as we do.

That said, no doubt about it, St John is a great saint. He is highly praised in the liturgy. Together with Our Lord’s and Our Lady’s, his is one of only three nativities celebrated by the Church. He was filled with the Holy Spirit even in the womb. He is the last and greatest of the prophets.

But then St Joseph is surely last and greatest of the Patriarchs, and while St John traditionally got more attention, at least liturgically, the Church has gradually come to honour and praise St Joseph more and more. While older iconography will depict St John on Our Lord’s left, and Our Lady on his right, there seems to be consensus in more recent centuries that after Our Lady, St Joseph is greatest among the saints.

Either way… I would rank St John as at least third after Our Lady and St Joseph…over all other saints…as the Forerunner and Herald of the Lord.

 

[Startingcatholic]

That’s so cool! Thanks for the information! I realize I don’t always clarify my idea fully in my original posts so sorry for any confusion!

 

[White_Tree]

Is Matthew 11:11 Jesus says “Amen I say to you, among those born of women, there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”. Is Jesus implying that John is Greater than Mary. Wouldn’t that disprove Mary being sinless and perfect?

Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. – John 3:5-8

 

[Startingcatholic]

Explanation?

 

[Anesti33]

Are you trying to say that John wasn’t baptized, or that Mary was, or what?

 

[TMC]

I think it is more important to focus on Jesus’s actual point, which I would say is that everyone in the Kingdom is greater than anyone that is not. I doubt Jesus was trying to draw some distinction between Mary and John, or John and Elijah, or anyone else. He was essentially saying "Hey, you guys know how great John is? We all think he is the best, right? Well, that’s nothing compared to those in the Kingdom.? The Kingdom is the focus, and the intended comparative, not Mary or any other particular person.

 

[kapp19]

Christ was also born of a woman.

So there is a mystical meaning here. It seems to be a teaching on the Old Law and the Prophets… of which John is the final peak - which the people had dimly perceived, yet not fully receiving John’s message about Jesus, thus the point about the Kingdom (which is Christ Himself and His Will)… As a forerunner, there is nobody greater than John - not even Elijah. But this does not necessarily mean John is not “in the Kingdom” - a very impious thought indeed, one which unfortunately is found (albeit more weakly) in the exegesis that John was doubting Jesus while in prison - a position the Fathers do not find at all appealing. Those verses are right “next door,” too…

 

[PaulinVA]

What does “greater” even mean? They were both human people.

 

[Anesti33]

I guess you should ask Jesus.

 

[tonyh12]

I think perhaps that Jesus was speaking of the greatness those born into original sin as John the Baptist was, Mary was immaculately conceived and the term greatness is just a turn of phrase meaning he was a great man of God

 

[Anesti33]

Jesus was speaking of the greatness those born into original sin as John the Baptist was, Mary was immaculately conceived

That’s odd. If this is the orthodox interpretation, then why is pious tradtion able to assert that St. John was cleansed of Original Sin before his birth?

 

[tonyh12]

I don’t weight pious tradition I only go by what I know to be infallibly true but say it were dogma then my understsnding would be modified

 

[Anesti33]

Yes, but nothing you said is infallible.

 

[tonyh12]

Yes just my opinions based on the teachings on being born again and of immaculate conception etc these are infallible teachings these are what I can trust and use to form my opinions

Regarding pious traditions perhaps a whole new thread on that but thanks for bringing it up my initial thought would be something as important as this why would it not be made dogma why is it not widely even heard of which early Christians wrote of it etc

 

[White_Tree]

Are you trying to say that John wasn’t baptized, or that Mary was, or what?

As Jesus indicated to Nicodemus in John 3:10, the spiritual birth he was referring to in this discussion is something that already existed in the Jewish tradition; therefore it could not have been baptism, though baptism contains within it a symbolic gesture towards the genuine birth in the spirit.

Explanation?

Recall that John the Baptist is simultaneously a physical person and a representation of a spiritual archetype. As part of the same discussion that you quoted, Jesus says:

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. – Matthew 11:14-15

Does this mean that John the Baptist is a “reincarnation” of Elijah? Possibly, but not necessarily. Though it does indicate that John the Baptist represents the same spiritual archetype as Elijah. Jesus closes that discussion with “he who has ears to hear, let him hear,” which he often uses when he is speaking symbolically or “in code,” further suggesting that he is speaking of the spiritual archetype represented by John, not the physical person of John himself.

Recall also from the passage I cited, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This implies the birth in the spirit is a prerequisite to enter the Kingdom. It is necessary, but not sufficient. There are still other steps, or requirements.

“John” (the archetype), being a baptist (which as stated earlier is a symbolic representation of the birth in the Spirit), indicates someone who has achieved this spiritual birth (and is thus greater than those born of flesh, or of woman), but has not yet entered the Kingdom. He represents an intermediate stage. He prepares the way for the Lord, but is not the Lord himself (John 1:23-27).

So the statement in Matthew 11:11 really has nothing to do with John or Mary’s personal greatness or spiritual development. It’s about the archetype John represents.