John the Baptist

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TheSpiritHeals

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Does anyone know the Church’s reasoning for saying that John the Baptist was born
without original sin?
 
From newadvent.org/cathen/08486b.htm:

“Now during the sixth month, the Annunciation had taken place, and, as Mary had heard from the angel the fact of her cousin’s conceiving, she went “with haste” to congratulate her. “And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant” — filled, like the mother, with the Holy Ghost — “leaped for joy in her womb”, as if to acknowledge the presence of his Lord. Then was accomplished the prophetic utterance of the angel that the child should “be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb”. Now as the presence of any sin whatever is incompatible with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the soul, it follows that at this moment John was cleansed from the stain of original sin.”

It is important to note that the article is not saying he was conceived without sin like Mary.
 
TheSpiritHeals said:
Does anyone know the Church’s reasoning for saying that John the Baptist was born
without original sin?
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the Church does not teach this as infallible dogma, but the fact that Elizabeth declares that the infant leapt in her womb as Mary, bearing the Savior in her own womb, approached, is taken by some to mean he recognized the presence of Christ even before his birth, who he was, and was “saved” by him at that moment.
 
We should stick with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

This is why I’m not a big fan of devotion to saints, because there is so much embellishment and exaggeration and such.

EWTN has that program called “Super Saints.” Oh, please. Being a saint is not enough? these are “super” saints? how about super duper saints? Where does it end?
 
And speaking about EWTN, yesterday’s homily by Father Trigilio, addressed this very issue that arose out of the day’s gospel. He confirmed the same message; i.e., that the Church believes St. John the Baptist was cleansed of original sin by the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb, even though he was conceived with it.

If anyone wants to listen, it can be viewed here. Scroll to 07:55.
 
Sirach2 said:
And speaking about EWTN, yesterday’s homily by Father Trigilio, addressed this very issue that arose out of the day’s gospel. He confirmed the same message; i.e., that** the Church believes** St. John the Baptist was cleansed of original sin by the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb, even though he was conceived with it.

If anyone wants to listen, it can be viewed here. Scroll to 07:55.
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It is NOT a Church teaching.
 
Well, Thistle, perhaps not in the form of an official dogma, but it is believed “generally,” albeit not with the strength of Divine Revelation.
Fr. Trigilio has authored several books and appears frequently on EWTN. He is known to be very orthodox.

You have some further study to show us?
 
Sirach2 said:
Well, Thistle, perhaps not in the form of an official dogma, but it is believed “generally,” albeit not with the strength of Divine Revelation.
Fr. Trigilio has authored several books and appears frequently on EWTN. He is known to be very orthodox.

You have some further study to show us?
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It is not Church teaching of any kind.
What is your evidence that it is “generally believed”.
 
We will not find this in a catechism, for instance, and it is not part of the creed whereby we profess it as a belief for salvation. Nevertheless, scripture does record in the message of the angel that “He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.”

We know the Holy Ghost indwells the soul when original sin is removed, so how else would you explain this fulfilled prophecy?
 
Sirach2 said:
We will not find this in a catechism, for instance, and it is not part of the creed whereby we profess it as a belief for salvation. Nevertheless, scripture does record in the message of the angel that “He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.”

We know the Holy Ghost indwells the soul when original sin is removed, so how else would you explain this fulfilled prophecy?
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You are missing the point. I am not saying I disbelieve. I am saying it is not and never has been a Church teaching of any kind that John The Baptist was conceived in original sin but born free from original sin.
If your interpretation of that verse is correct then such a thing would be significant enough for it to be taught by the Church but it is not. That means the Church does not know.
John being born free from original sin as far as I know has come from tradition with a small “t” only.
 
It is indeed a Church teaching that St. John the Forerunner was sanctified in the womb.

Lets end this “its not infallibly defined” shenanigans. Not everything in our faith has been “infallibly defined”. A lot of our faith is based on traditions from the time of the Apostles. If we pray the faith in our Churches from the dawn of Christianity, why shouldn’t it be something we believe in? Waiting for something to be infallibly defined is needless legalism which trivializes our faith and leads to nothing but Phraiseeism.
 
Well said, Constantine. 👍

We have many traditional understandings from scripture that are not part of the Deposit of Faith - yet they are believed, for scripture is God’s word. Many of these scriptures will be celebrated in our upcoming holydays, such as the angelic announcement of Christ’s birth to the shepherds, the visit by the Magi, the slaughter of innocents, etc.
 
This is why St. John the Baptist’s name appears in the litany of the saints immediately after Our Lady and the angels–even before St. Joseph. It appears in the same place in the traditional Confiteor, and in most other prayers in which he is named.
 
Not to mention John the Baptist is the ONLY saint whose nativity is celebrated by the Church in her official liturgy other than Our Lord and Lady. Why pray tell would Holy Church celebrate the nativity of someone who was not sanctified in the womb? just my two cents :o
 
Excellent point, Cruikshank_s. It is certainly worth more than two cents. 😛
That happens to be the name of my parish, and we celebrate it with far more festivity on that account. June 24th. The LoTH has its own reading and special antiphons, as well.
 
I always thought that ‘original sin’ was being clothed in flesh as both Adam and Eve were formed in the likeness of God. Knowledge of good and evil came with the demands of the flesh…climate, food, health, etc. Is that still a part of the RCC teachings? :confused:
 
ConstantineTG said:
It is indeed a Church teaching that St. John the Forerunner was sanctified in the womb.

Lets end this “its not infallibly defined” shenanigans. Not everything in our faith has been “infallibly defined”. A lot of our faith is based on traditions from the time of the Apostles. If we pray the faith in our Churches from the dawn of Christianity, why shouldn’t it be something we believe in? Waiting for something to be infallibly defined is needless legalism which trivializes our faith and leads to nothing but Phraiseeism.
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The Catechism states that John was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb. What I find odd is 411 where Mary alone is mentioned freed from original sin. I find this confusing. Does filled with the Holy Spirit equal free from original sin? If so, there are others who are said to be filled with the Holy Spirit Elizabeth- Simeon. Does the Church teach it? I am not sure. Could you provde a source from the Church?
 
karaleigh said:
I always thought that ‘original sin’ was being clothed in flesh as both Adam and Eve were formed in the likeness of God. Knowledge of good and evil came with the demands of the flesh…climate, food, health, etc. Is that still a part of the RCC teachings? :confused:
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The Catholic Church taught this? I am not sure I understand you but if you are saying the sin is because we have flesh than this was never taught. Perhaps you can explain more.
 
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Adrift:
What I find odd is 411 where Mary alone is mentioned freed from original sin. I find this confusing. Does filled with the Holy Spirit equal free from original sin? If so, there are others who are said to be filled with the Holy Spirit Elizabeth- Simeon. Does the Church teach it?
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Actually, the passage you quote needs to be read in context with the previous #410.

410 After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall.304 This passage in Genesis is called the *Protoevangelium *(“first gospel”): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam. Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve”. Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.

I don’t believe that particular section of the catechism was meant to disregard the scriptures concerning St. John, and therefore, does not mention it. Also missing in this particular section is the fact that Mary was not only preserved from original sin, but she was conceived without it. St. John was not freed at his conception, but six months later by a special action of the Holy Spirit.

The others you mention, and many more saints perhaps, while being filled with the Holy Spirit, were not recipients of that special grace prior to their birth.
 
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