John, The Immerser

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Ben_Masada said:
**You forget that you are talking about Jewish folks, and trying to insert non-Jewish Hellenistic ideas into Judaism. Everything you have said above are Church fabrications in order to document the Church of Paul. If you tried this with Islam you would be in big trouble, given the character of Islam. **
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The ideas - or truths - that I furnished you with come directly from a whole group of Jews - namely the ones who wrote the Old and New Testaments.

**I realize that being an anti-Christian, *(and I’ve read many of your posts, so don’***t try to deny it) puts you in the position of having to try to debunk all things Christian. BUT - the plain fact - if you bothered to open your eyes - is that Jesus fulfilled the Law. Hence, He DID, in fact change everything.

His Baptism actually imparts forgiveness, grace and rebirth, whereas John’s was one of repentance and self-examination.

Oh - please show me where I went astray by inserting Hellenistic ideas into Judaism in order to buttress support for fabrications of the “Church of Paul”.
**I can’t wait to read this . . . :rolleyes:
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Was Jesus a Jew? Yes, he was. Was John a Jew? Yes, he was. Everything you quote above is not Jewish. Therefore, all non-Jewish interpolations with the purpose to document the Church. **
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Basic Jewish argument. Jesus, Matthew, Mark, and John are Jewish, and Jewish would never write such things. In other words, all gospels are rubbish.
 
Ben_Masada said:
John, the Immerser.

Have you ever seen religious Jews at the corners of some streets, inviting others Jewish passers-by do done Tephillin? I mean, Philacteries. Many still do this as a religious occupation with the purpose to cause other Jews to perform a mitzvah. I mean, a commandment.

That was John’s occupation: To immerse Jews in the Jordan River, over and over again everyday. Many Jews used to and still do it daily, others weekly before the Shabbat, others only before a festival, and almost all before a happy event in life, like a wedding, bar-mitzvah, or anything uncommon.

The point is that many Jews would do this as an occupation, but they had their own lives to live. It means that John could very well have been a married man, which would neutralize the Christian claim that John was an Essene, and of those who observed celibacy. These kind of Essenes would live their lives “indoors;” I mean, in their claustro-like style of life. John and Jesus, on the contrary, were men of the outside; mingling with the crowds. Ambulant Teachers or Rabbis.

Now, why Jonh the Immerser and not John the Baptist? I was asked once.
Simply because Baptist was never a Jewish term. It had become common with the rise of Christianity. (Mat. 28:19; Acts 19:5) Then, John and Jesus were Jewish. And what John did could never be compared with baptism, because this is something done once for life; and what John did, it could be done even every single day with the same prospects. (Mat.3:7)

Ben
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While an interesting theory, I’m not sure of the impact (if any) on Christian belief.

I am by no means a Bible scholar, but from my understanding, the religious practices described, such as what John the Baptist wore, hanging out in the desert alone and eating locusts, gives weight to the idea that he had taken religious vows that included celibacy.

What do you know of these types of practices, and how do they fit with the practice of immersion?
 
elvisman said:
The ideas - or truths - that I furnished you with come directly from a whole group of Jews - namely the ones who wrote the Old and New Testaments.

**I realize that being an anti-Christian, *(and I’ve read many of your posts, so don’***t try to deny it) puts you in the position of having to try to debunk all things Christian. BUT - the plain fact - if you bothered to open your eyes - is that Jesus fulfilled the Law. Hence, He DID, in fact change everything.

His Baptism actually imparts forgiveness, grace and rebirth, whereas John’s was one of repentance and self-examination.

Oh - please show me where I went astray by inserting Hellenistic ideas into Judaism in order to buttress support for fabrications of the "Church of Paul".
I can’t wait to read *this *. . . :rolleyes:
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**Jews could have never written the NT. Jews don’t write about Greek Mythology. The gospels were written by Hellenistic Gentiles with a very poor knowledge of Jewish culture and customs.

You are contradicting Jesus himself as you say that he changed the Law, when he declared himself that he did not come to change but to confirm every commandment down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Everytime you claim that Jesus was son of God, you are inserting Hellenistic ideas into Judaism, because Jesus was a Jew. I consider this an attack to the integrity of the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.**
 
swariffin said:
Basic Jewish argument. Jesus, Matthew, Mark, and John are Jewish, and Jewish would never write such things. In other words, all gospels are rubbish.
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**You said so. And if I am to say anything, it is that I agree with you. **
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Jews could have never written the NT. Jews don’t write about Greek Mythology. The gospels were written by -]Hellenistic Gentiles/-] -]with a very poor knowledge of Jewish culture and customs. /-]

You are contradicting Jesus himself as you say that he changed the Law, when he declared himself that he did not come to -]change/-]** abolish but to -]confirm/-] FULFILL every commandment down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Everytime you claim that Jesus was son of God, you are inserting Hellenistic ideas into Judaism, because Jesus was a Jew. I consider this an attack to the integrity of the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.
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*FIXED

The Hellenistic period begins in 323 with the death of Alexander the Great and ends with the battle of Actio in 31 BC.**
 
RebeccaJ said:
While an interesting theory, I’m not sure of the impact (if any) on Christian belief.

I am by no means a Bible scholar, but from my understanding, the religious practices described, such as what John the Baptist wore, hanging out in the desert alone and eating locusts, gives weight to the idea that he had taken religious vows that included celibacy.

What do you know of these types of practices, and how do they fit with the practice of immersion?
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**I do not believe that John had taken vows of celibacy; as Jesus had not either. These vows were extremely uncommon in Judaism. Only among Essenes and a very small faction of them.

John was a religious Jew, and to immerse Jews in the Jordan River as a ritual purification was an occupation chosen by certain religious Jews. Jesus, on the other hand, was more of the Teacher type or Rabbi. But both had another life to live; and their lives included raising a family, since to marry was one of the most important commandments for religious Jews.

This hermit picture the gospels paint of John in the desert eating grasshoppers is pure nonsense to prepare a fictitious introduction for Jesus, which had nothing to do with reality.**
 
Ben_Masada said:
**

This hermit picture the gospels paint of John in the desert eating grasshoppers is pure nonsense to prepare a fictitious introduction for Jesus, which had nothing to do with reality.**
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or John fulfilled what the Spirit of the Lord spoke through the prophets; Prepare the way of the Lord.
 
SimonArizona said:
*FIXED

The Hellenistic period begins in 323 with the death of Alexander the Great and ends with the battle of Actio in 31 BC.**
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**Any idea of a man being born of God with a woman is Greek Mythology, and there can’t be such a thing in Judaism. So, drop the claim that Jesus was Jewish and I’ll relax my defense of Judaism.

And with regards to your fixing of my word “change” for yours “fulfilled”, you have forgotten that Matthew chapter 5 has a verse 19, where Jesus confirmed the whole Law down to the letter and warned us all to observe them and teach them whithout any change even of a dot of the letter. So, it remains that Jesus did not change anything; and whoever claims that he did, is contradicting Jesus himself.**
 
SimonArizona said:
or John fulfilled what the Spirit of the Lord spoke through the prophets; Prepare the way of the Lord.
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Isaiah was referring to God’s Herald in preparation for the return of the Jews from the Babylonian exile. It had nothing to do with either John or Jesus.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Isaiah was referring to God’s Herald in preparation for the return of the Jews from the Babylonian exile. It had nothing to do with either John or Jesus.
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Isaiah 40:3, “A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for the Lord [YHWH] 1 in the wilderness; make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.”

Mal. 3:1, “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord [adonai], whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord [YHWH] of hosts."

Notice that according to the quotes above, John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Adonai. Isaiah 40:3 says that John is to clear the way for YHWH. In Mal. 3:1, it is God who says that “he will clear the way before Me.” Yet we see that the fulfillment of these verses is found in the arrival of Jesus.
 
Ben_Masada said:
**I do not believe that John had taken vows of celibacy; as Jesus had not either. These vows were extremely uncommon in Judaism. Only among Essenes and a very small faction of them.

John was a religious Jew, and to immerse Jews in the Jordan River as a ritual purification was an occupation chosen by certain religious Jews. Jesus, on the other hand, was more of the Teacher type or Rabbi. But both had another life to live; and their lives included raising a family, since to marry was one of the most important commandments for religious Jews.

This hermit picture the gospels paint of John in the desert eating grasshoppers is pure nonsense to prepare a fictitious introduction for Jesus, which had nothing to do with reality.**
Click to expand...
You seem to have built your own fictions re:Jesus and others in the NT. OK for you, but I’m not into this sort of thing. 🙂
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Jews could have never written the NT. Jews don’t write about Greek Mythology. The gospels were written by Hellenistic Gentiles with a very poor knowledge of Jewish culture and customs. **

**You are contradicting Jesus himself as you say that he changed the Law, when he declared himself that he did not come to change but to confirm every commandment down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19) **

Everytime you claim that Jesus was son of God, you are inserting Hellenistic ideas into Judaism, because Jesus was a Jew. I consider this an attack to the integrity of the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.
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I just got back to my computer and was ready to respond when I saw that SimonArizona has already done a masterful job, so I won’t repeat what he has written.

I understand that as an anti-Christian, it is your DUTY to find fault with the New Testament. Unfotunately, to do so is to deny the Old Testament in the process and it’s prophecies.

There is nothing Hellenistic or mythological about how God chose to reveal Himself. We get the same accusations from a number of pagan and Eastern religions, so yours is nothing new. It comes down to a matter of faith how he fulfilled all of his prohecies. **
Either you believe that God can do as he wills, or you can try to pigeonhole him to fit YOUR idea of how He should fulfill the prophecies.**
 
SimonArizona said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Masada
Quote:
Any idea of a man being born of God with a woman is Greek Mythology, and there can’t be such a thing in Judaism. So, drop the claim that Jesus was Jewish and I’ll relax my defense of Judaism.

excuse me if I’m wrong, in Judaism, the prophets fortold the Messias being born of a woman, whose name is great God.
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If you are referring to Isaiah 7:14, read Amos 5:2. The virgin is Israel. And if you read Isaiah 7:15,22; 8:8, that child born of the virgin is Judah, the People who remained in the Land feeding themselves in butter and honey. The problem is that you read the Scriptures out of context.
 
SimonArizona said:
Isaiah 40:3, “A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for the Lord [YHWH] 1 in the wilderness; make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.”

Mal. 3:1, “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord [adonai], whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord [YHWH] of hosts."

Notice that according to the quotes above, John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Adonai. Isaiah 40:3 says that John is to clear the way for YHWH. In Mal. 3:1, it is God who says that “he will clear the way before Me.” Yet we see that the fulfillment of these verses is found in the arrival of Jesus.
Click to expand...
**If you read Daniel 9:24, Evelasting Justice, which is God Himself returned with the People from exile. Since the Jews returned from Babylon through the desert, that became the highway for our God.

That Messenger is God’s Herald to wake the exiles up and prepare them to return to the Land of Israel.

How can you fabricate the nonsense that according to Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1, John was sent to prepare the way for Adonai? Do you think you are talking to a moron? To another Christian who does not know the Scriptures you may fool like that, but not me pal. There is no reference to John in those verses. **
 
elvisman said:
I just got back to my computer and was ready to respond when I saw that SimonArizona has already done a masterful job, so I won’t repeat what he has written.

I understand that as an anti-Christian, it is your DUTY to find fault with the New Testament. Unfotunately, to do so is to deny the Old Testament in the process and it’s prophecies.

There is nothing Hellenistic or mythological about how God chose to reveal Himself. We get the same accusations from a number of pagan and Eastern religions, so yours is nothing new. It comes down to a matter of faith how he fulfilled all of his prohecies.
Either you believe that God can do as he wills,** or you can try to pigeonhole** him to fit YOUR idea of how He should fulfill the prophecies.
Click to expand...
**Believe it or not. You have given the right answer to all questions when you declare that it is all a matter of faith. Yes, and faith requires no evidences, for not being based in facts, but in suppositions. **
 
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