Joint Discussion between ATHEIST and CATHOLIC

[Charlemagne_III]

I tried to be open to God for a while but I can not make myself believe just as I suspect you couldn’t make yourself not believe.

I don’t think it’s a matter of forcing yourself to believe.

Belief is natural to us … if we but surrender to belief, we see that is so.

What is possible is that we can force ourselves not to believe by a perverse act of will.

What I mean is that if we see some object to be attained by not believing, we can suspend our belief in a forceful manner. This is consistent with Aquinas, who believed that sin is not just in the will but in the intellect. First we use reason to deceive ourselves that a sin is good, and then we choose it.

The classic instance of this is the case of Adam and Eve, whose reason was deceived by the promise of becoming as gods, and then choosing to eat from the tree that would make that possible.

 

[Nixbits]

Question to atheists: Is it that it is possible that you can reason to God’s existence but that you do not desire to do so? Or just ignore the challenge and see no importance in doing so.

To answer this question as it is put: Yes, I think it possible that a person has the capacity to conclude that a god exists based on reasoning alone, but that they do not wish to do the reasoning that might end up with that conclusion.

I will add that I think that most atheists have considered the reasoning to evaluate whether or not a god exists, and have looked for evidence to back up claims that a god manifests in the physical world. The degree to which they have investigated will vary from person to person. But they have concluded that neither reason nor evidence is compelling enough to warrant the belief in a god or gods.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

But they have concluded that neither reason nor evidence is compelling enough to warrant the belief in a god or gods.

One might think that self interest would be compelling reason enough.

 

[ynotzap]

To answer this question as it is put: Yes, I think it possible that a person has the capacity to conclude that a god exists based on reasoning alone, but that they do not wish to do the reasoning that might end up with that conclusion.

I will add that I think that most atheists have considered the reasoning to evaluate whether or not a god exists, and have looked for evidence to back up claims that a god manifests in the physical world. The degree to which they have investigated will vary from person to person. But they have concluded that neither reason nor evidence is compelling enough to warrant the belief in a god or gods.

And God respects their choice, if there is no desire to know and love Him, then there will never be a union with Him, and this is how Hell comes into existence. Those that chose darkness, remain in darkness. But that is for us to know, and them to experience.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Question to Christians:

A number of people tired to Christianity suffered horribly. The apostles and especially Job come to mind.
The promise of eternal life aside, do you feel that practicing your faith improves or worsens your life? Can you provide a short example?

 

[ynotzap]

Question to Christians:

A number of people tired to Christianity suffered horribly. The apostles and especially Job come to mind.
The promise of eternal life aside, do you feel that practicing your faith improves or worsens your life? Can you provide a short example?

It is better to suffer for a good thing, than to suffer for a bad thing. Years ago I stood against corruption in the work place, I was framed. A man with a conscience in high-places got me reinstated in my job after 4 years of suffering separation. I learned something very valuable during this time that helped me understand what was happening. It benefited me with peace of mind, when it could have turned into hatred for those involved. Now most if not all are dead, what have they gained, money, security for an evil act. I learned through my faith that God is in charge all the way, and if He is for you, who can be against you. I also learned, without God in one’s life, life is worthless, and they can’t really help what they do, they are spiritually handicapped, and I learned to forgive.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The promise of eternal life aside, do you feel that practicing your faith improves or worsens your life? Can you provide a short example?

Improves my life immeasurably. I am not so virtuous as I would like to be, but I’m certain that what virtues I do have by the grace of God are more of a consolation to me in this life than certain vices others have that have made them miserable as they can be.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Question to Christians:

A number of people tired to Christianity suffered horribly. The apostles and especially Job come to mind.
The promise of eternal life aside, do you feel that practicing your faith improves or worsens your life? Can you provide a short example?

Yes it gives me sense of true peace and security. When people let me down, when the world seems against me, when I feel burdened by life, I know I am not facing it all alone. God and all his angels and saints are standing near me, protecting me, guiding me and helping me. God always answers prayers and whether we get what we pray for or not, God will make a way.

 

[pocaracas]

Question for christians:
Considering mankind’s evolution from mere animals to humans, we can tell that at some point we attained the concept of the divine. Archaeological evidence suggests that the first rudimentary beliefs were aimed at Nature and certain natural objects, animals, trees, the sun and moon.
Why did those people believe of such things as divine?

 

[ynotzap]

Question for christians:
Considering mankind’s evolution from mere animals to humans, we can tell that at some point we attained the concept of the divine. Archaeological evidence suggests that the first rudimentary beliefs were aimed at Nature and certain natural objects, animals, trees, the sun and moon.
Why did those people believe of such things as divine?

We are not allowed to discuss evolution at this time. But one can not give what one does not have, and that is rational intelligence, speaking of animals, or rational life. Even primitive cultures believed in some higher power. When contemplating Nature, what is noticed by human intelligence is the Order, the dependence, the movement of things, the variety of different forms of life. A realization that Nature does not explain itself, nor cause it’s own existence. Archaeology is concerned with empirical evidence, men’s minds are not restricted to empirical evidence but to the whole of reality which includes a reality that is sensed, and one that is understood, not sensed. To produce the Universe points to some intelligent, higher power beyond the abilities of men. Archaeology suggests, but it is only a suggestion. How do they know that it wasn’t divine revelation?

 

[pocaracas]

We are not allowed to discuss evolution at this time.

Ah, indeed… but the question wasn’t entirely about evolution… evolution was more of a preamble.
I wonder why this rule is in place…?

But one can not give what one does not have, and that is rational intelligence, speaking of animals, or rational life. Even primitive cultures believed in some higher power. When contemplating Nature, what is noticed by human intelligence is the Order, the dependence, the movement of things, the variety of different forms of life. A realization that Nature does not explain itself, nor cause it’s own existence. Archaeology is concerned with empirical evidence, men’s minds are not restricted to empirical evidence but to the whole of reality which includes a reality that is sensed, and one that is understood, not sensed. To produce the Universe points to some intelligent, higher power beyond the abilities of men. Archaeology suggests, but it is only a suggestion. How do they know that it wasn’t divine revelation?

They don’t know.
If it was divine revelation, why was it not perfect to the point of kicking things off with the worship of the single deity?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Ah, indeed… but the question wasn’t entirely about evolution… evolution was more of a preamble.
I wonder why this rule is in place…?

I won’t derail this thread with a complete explanation, but rather was a time when discussions of evolution and atheism here were rather emotionally charged. The prohibition on atheism was dropped earlier this year. It’s still in place for evolution.

 

[ynotzap]

Ah, indeed… but the question wasn’t entirely about evolution… evolution was more of a preamble.
I wonder why this rule is in place…?

They don’t know.
If it was divine revelation, why was it not perfect to the point of kicking things off with the worship of the single deity?

The revelation was made to Moses, the leader who brought the Israelites out of Egypt and welded them into a nation. Torah (the Mosaic Law) consists of laws which regulated the moral, civil and religious life of the Israelites. God identified Himself to Moses, and the Torah describes the covenant God made with His chosen people, their journey to the promise land, their conquests. God also promised a Redeemer to Adam and Eve, and sent many prophets to verify that promise. These prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus Christ (the New Testament) Salvation of mankind was to come from the Jews. It was kicked-off, but not with the whole world at one time, but the true knowledge of the Deity was to be promulgated through the whole world initially by the Twelve Apostles, and their successors through the Faith of Christianity, and Christians, followers of Jesus Christ. He is the same Deity, who identified Himself to Moses, the I Am Who Am. Even through intelligence, the Deity is proven to be One, in Scholastic Metaphysics, but His identity is made known through the Bible, Divine Revelation. The Jews believed in God as a single Deity.

 

[Wesrock]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Ah, indeed… but the question wasn’t entirely about evolution… evolution was more of a preamble.
I wonder why this rule is in place…?

They don’t know.
If it was divine revelation, why was it not perfect to the point of kicking things off with the worship of the single deity?

I’m not a literalist, but scripture seems to imply that revelation was made to all men. There was the Adamic covenant, and later the Noahic covenant, but that didn’t stop men from drifting away. So revelation had been made available to all at points in the past, and gentile followers of the one God were expected by Jews to observe the Noahide laws, as they applied to everyone, not just Jews. Anyway, rather than work with all of humanity who had opportunities in the past, he instead cultivated a chosen people who he could teach and who would be a light to the world.

 

[pocaracas]

The revelation was made to Moses, the leader who brought the Israelites out of Egypt and welded them into a nation. Torah (the Mosaic Law) consists of laws which regulated the moral, civil and religious life of the Israelites. God identified Himself to Moses, and the Torah describes the covenant God made with His chosen people, their journey to the promise land, their conquests. God also promised a Redeemer to Adam and Eve, and sent many prophets to verify that promise. These prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus Christ (the New Testament) Salvation of mankind was to come from the Jews. It was kicked-off, but not with the whole world at one time, but the true knowledge of the Deity was to be promulgated through the whole world initially by the Twelve Apostles, and their successors through the Faith of Christianity, and Christians, followers of Jesus Christ. He is the same Deity, who identified Himself to Moses, the I Am Who Am. Even through intelligence, the Deity is proven to be One, in Scholastic Metaphysics, but His identity is made known through the Bible, Divine Revelation. The Jews believed in God as a single Deity.

I feel like I’m the only one asking questions

Why did he only revealed himself to Moses?
And, if one is to believe the story, at a time when polytheist religions were already very well established - Egypt retained that pantheon for some 4000 years… that’s impressive.

What’s not impressive is that God chose to reveal himself after mankind had made up other gods… Man makes up gods, then one of them turns out to reveal himself to show us that he’s the one true God? But reveals himself to a single person?!
Mohammad, again?

 

[Wesrock]

I feel like I’m the only one asking questions

Why did he only revealed himself to Moses?
And, if one is to believe the story, at a time when polytheist religions were already very well established - Egypt retained that pantheon for some 4000 years… that’s impressive.

What’s not impressive is that God chose to reveal himself after mankind had made up other gods… Man makes up gods, then one of them turns out to reveal himself to show us that he’s the one true God? But reveals himself to a single person?!
Mohammad, again?

Abraham had been a faithful follower of God, and God had made a covenant with him and his descendants to bless them, multiply them, and make a nation out of them. I wouldn’t say Moses was the first. I wouldn’t say Abraham was the first either, but the covenant was made through him.

The Israelites in Egypt were Abraham’s descendants through Isaac and through Jacob. God bringing them out of Egypt and making a new covenant with them was a follow through on his covenant with their forefathers.

And again, I think the narrative of the first eleven chapters of Genesis indicate that God had previous interactions that applied to all humanity, not just the Israelites.

 

[pocaracas]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

I’m not a literalist, but scripture seems to imply that revelation was made to all men. There was the Adamic covenant, and later the Noahic covenant, but that didn’t stop men from drifting away. So revelation had been made available to all at points in the past, and gentile followers of the one God were expected by Jews to observe the Noahide laws, as they applied to everyone, not just Jews. Anyway, rather than work with all of humanity who had opportunities in the past, he instead cultivated a chosen people who he could teach and who would be a light to the world.

Let’s skip Adam and Noah, ok? those seem to be sensitive subjects… and not to be taken entirely literally.

Why cultivate a chosen people?
Why not cultivate other peoples, even if not those immediate neighbors… some others in China, India, the Americas, Europe, Central and southern Africa… Australia.

 

[pocaracas]

Abraham had been a faithful follower of God, and God had made a covenant with him and his descendants to bless them, multiply them, and make a nation out of them. I wouldn’t say Moses was the first. I wouldn’t say Abraham was the first either, but the covenant was made through him.

The Israelites in Egypt were Abraham’s descendants through Isaac and through Jacob. God bringing them out of Egypt and making a new covenant with them was a follow through on his covenant with their forefathers.

And again, I think the narrative of the first eleven chapters of Genesis indicate that God had previous interactions that applied to all humanity, not just the Israelites.

Ah, Abraham… how did I forget that one?!
Still… why only one person per decades, if not centuries? (and they were all nearby…)

 

[Wesrock]

Ah, Abraham… how did I forget that one?!
Still… why only one person per decades, if not centuries? (and they were all nearby…)

Men are adulterous beings. Just look at all the spiritual adultery committed by the Israel and Judah through Judges and Kings (to sum it up: they kept worshipping other gods).

Anyway, that’s not really a full answer. I feel like God did give all of humanity an opportunity prior, and they spurned it. Israel was elected as a first born nation, and voluntarily entered a covenant with God such that he was the Father of Israel and they (collectively) would be as his first born. And in this, they voluntarily agreed to both the parental rewards and discipline this entailed. It gave him a voluntariy group to work with, to teach, to educate, and which would ultimately explode out into the world to bring all other nations to him. It seems rather successful to me. But, for the third time, I wouldn’t discount the voluntary agreement by Israel to take this responsibility and discipline. It wasn’t forced upon them as a nation.

 

[ynotzap]

Ah, Abraham… how did I forget that one?!
Still… why only one person per decades, if not centuries? (and they were all nearby…)

It goes back to the sin of Adam and Eve. Due to the consequences of sin and it’s effects, ignorance, and weakness of will, corruption became endemic to human nature. The loss of the Holy Spirit, sanctifying grace threw the world into spiritual darkness, that is what ignorance is, the absence of truth. this could never be regained by mankind. This why Adam was promised a Redeemer. The Redeemer, Jesus Christ came aproximately 2000 yrs ago. The Jews where exposed to false gods by pagan nations, and where punished for it, because they had a covenant with the revealed Deity. It was through them that a single Deity was reveal because they were chosen to live by this truth. So you see the fallen world was helpless to know this single Deity. And it was through the Jewish nation that the Redeemer would come The fact that there were false gods, only proves that mankind in spite of ignorance still acknowledge a higher power, even if they didn’t know exactly what this power was. Abraham was the father of the Jewish nation, and God told him that his posterity would be like sand on the sea shore, The sin of Adam cut humanity’s relationship with God, and it could not be restored by a human. Jesus was God-man who could restore this relationship once again. By one man the world was lost, by one man, Jesus, God-man the world is restored.