Joint Discussion between ATHEIST and CATHOLIC

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ynotzap said:
It goes back to the sin of Adam and Eve. Due to the consequences of sin and it’s effects, ignorance, and weakness of will, corruption became endemic to human nature. The loss of the Holy Spirit, sanctifying grace threw the world into spiritual darkness, that is what ignorance is, the absence of truth. this could never be regained by mankind. This why Adam was promised a Redeemer. The Redeemer, Jesus Christ came aproximately 2000 yrs ago. The Jews where exposed to false gods by pagan nations, and where punished for it, because they had a covenant with the revealed Deity. It was through them that a single Deity was reveal because they were chosen to live by this truth. So you see the fallen world was helpless to know this single Deity. And it was through the Jewish nation that the Redeemer would come The fact that there were false gods, only proves that mankind in spite of ignorance still acknowledge a higher power, even if they didn’t know exactly what this power was. Abraham was the father of the Jewish nation, and God told him that his posterity would be like sand on the sea shore, The sin of Adam cut humanity’s relationship with God, and it could not be restored by a human. Jesus was God-man who could restore this relationship once again. By one man the world was lost, by one man, Jesus, God-man the world is restored.
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yeah… I’ve heard that story before… not that I actually believe in that Adam&Eve sin thing, but if you’re happy with it, then so be it.
But there was one detail that was new to me: “The Jews where exposed to false gods by pagan nations, and where punished for it”
I thought that the Jews kept the law of Moses…
 
I believe he’s referring to the Book of Judges and the two Books of Kings. The authors of those works very clearly blame the Assyrian and Babylonian Exiles as consequences of unfaithfulness to the one true God. In these books it’s emphasized that the Israelites kept falling into worship of the gods of surrounding nations, even going so far as to ignore the true God altogether in favor of the Baals, Asherah, and Astartes, etc… Often falling into pagan worship practices and such, too.

Solomon himself is described as building temples to foreign gods to please his foreign wives later in his life, and the authors point to this as part of the reason why the kingdom divided into two after his death.

The northern kingdom of Israel drifted away and never seemed to return to rightful worship, while the southern kingdom of Judah flitted back and forth, and it wasn’t until the reign of the reformer kings just before the Exile that they rediscovered a full text of the law left to Moses and the pagan worship was purged (though the reformer kings were followed by bad ones who brought some back, and eventually the Babylonian Exile). The Deuteronomic narrative (which seems to be a history pulled together from various sources, I don’t think a secular historian would think it was entirely made up out of nothing after the Exile) is also clear that the promises given to Moses and the Israelites confirmed that if they weren’t faithful they’d be scattered and would lose the land given to them.

It wasn’t until the return from the Exile that the Jews were firmly committed to monotheism, proper worship, and the laws of Moses. It was a purging, a purification, and the Jews quite clearly believed it was due to them worshipping other gods and not the god of their fathers, nor does the Bible shy away from making it clear they had worshipped other gods. In fact, that’s an important part of the pre-Exile narrative. It’s not some big secret or re-reading of the books… It’s a central theme. And whether or not you believe it’s inspired, it is certainly a work on how the Jewish people saw their history and culture after the Exile.

I’m posting from my phone. Please forgive spelling errors. I either need to accept a terrible autocorrect or the digital keyboard thinking I pressed the wrong letter.
 
Wesrock said:
I believe he’s referring to the Book of Judges and the two Books of Kings. The authors of those works very clearly blame the Assyrian and Babylonian Exiles as consequences of unfaithfulness to the one true God. In these books it’s emphasized that the Israelites kept falling into worship of the gods of surrounding nations, even going so far as to ignore the true God altogether in favor of the Baals, Asherah, and Astartes, etc… Often falling into pagan worship practices and such, too.

The northern kingdom of Israel drifted away and never seemed to return to rightful worship, while the southern kingdom of Judah flitted back and forth, and it wasn’t until the reign of the reformer kings just before the Exile that they rediscovered a full text of the law left to Moses and the pagan worship was purged (though the reformer kings were followed by bad ones who brought some back, and eventually the Babylonian Exile). The Deuteronomic narrative (which seems to be a history pulled together from various sources, I don’t think a secular historian would think it was entirely made up out of nothing after the Exile) is also clear that the promises given to Moses and the Israelites confirmed that if they weren’t faithful they’d be scattered and would lose the land given to them.

It wasn’t until the return from the Exile that the Jews were firmly committed to monotheism, proper worship, and the laws of Moses. It was a purging, a purification, and the Jews quite clearly believed it was due to them worshipping other gods and not the god of their fathers, nor does the Bible shy away from making it clear they had worshipped other gods. In fact, that’s an important part of the pre-Exile narrative. It’s not some big secret or re-reading of the books… It’s a central theme. And whether or not you believe it’s inspired, it is certainly a work on how the Jewish people saw their history and culture after the Exile.

I’m posting from my phone. Please forgive spelling errors. I either need to accept a terrible autocorrect or the digital keyboard thinking I pressed the wrong letter.
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Awesome! 🙂
I wasn’t aware of that part of the story.

And you wrote all that in your phone?! You are the Man! :bowdown:
 
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