Jonah and other Old Testament miracles

[patg]

I feel there is a tight-rope that one must walk when talking of this.

I think the church is very reasonable in allowing one story to be fiction teaching the truth and the other dogmatic belief.

It is foolish to say, “The story is fiction because there’s no way a man could live in the belly of a whale for 3 days”.

You are correct. BUT that is *not at all *the reason why one could reasonably class the story as fiction. A literary analysis of the story based on the contemporary forms is what clearly (to many) puts the story in the fictional category. And the church does not teach the historicity of Jonah as dogmatic belief.

If you believe that, then how can you refute someone who tells you, “there’s no way that God can become man and lower himself to death on a cross and then resurrect himself”?

The church requires belief in this as the foundation of the catholic faith. It is, of course, far more unnatural than the Jonah story.

Remember, all things were possible with God in the Old Testament times, just as all things are possible with God since the New Testament times.

And God did not forbid the use of fiction as a teaching tool - even Jesus used it.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think the church is very reasonable in allowing one story to be fiction teaching the truth and the other dogmatic belief.
You are correct. BUT that is *not at all *the reason why one could reasonably class the story as fiction. A literary analysis of the story based on the contemporary forms is what clearly (to many) puts the story in the fictional category. And the church does not teach the historicity of Jonah as dogmatic belief.
The church requires belief in this as the foundation of the catholic faith. It is, of course, far more unnatural than the Jonah story.

And God did not forbid the use of fiction as a teaching tool - even Jesus used it.

Pat, I agree with what you said. But there are those that question the story of Jonah **simply **because of the implausibility of Jonah’s survival in the whale. I would think those same cynics would have a hard time justifying their belief in the Incarnation/Resurrection against someone who denied the very same plausibility.

I’m not denying the fiction or the factualness of Jonah. I would simply hesitate to say, “This story is false because… well, because… because there’s no way Jonah could have lived that long”.

 

[razredge]

The church clearly states that we must literally believe Jesus rose from the dead. It says NOTHING about the historicity of the story of Jonah, the flood, or a great many other fictional teaching narratives.

Yes, exactly - plus we have excellent evidence to believe that Jesus did rise from the dead (unlike Jonah - where there is no evidence whatsoever).

I really don’t understand why people would want to cling to such a naive, simplistic view of Scripture.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, exactly - plus we have excellent evidence to believe that Jesus did rise from the dead (unlike Jonah - where there is no evidence whatsoever).

I really don’t understand why people would want to cling to such a naive, simplistic view of Scripture.

So… are you saying that there is no way that Jonah survived three days in the whale?

 

[razredge]

So… are you saying that there is no way that Jonah survived three days in the whale?

Well, it’s implausible - but the way the story is written is like a myth/ fairy story (unlike the Gospels) is probably the best reason to reject its historicity.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, it’s implausible - but the way the story is written is like a myth/ fairy story (unlike the Gospels) is probably the best reason to reject its historicity.

I can accept “implausible”. As mentioned, you’ve got that right.

But, could you define how it is “written like a myth/fairy story”.

Every other detail in the book seems very plausible, especially after reading Isaiah and Jeremiah.

 

[razredge]

I can accept “implausible”. As mentioned, you’ve got that right.

But, could you define how it is “written like a myth/fairy story”.

Every other detail in the book seems very plausible, especially after reading Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Well, firstly it’s pretty much impossible for a Jewish prophet to convince the capital of the Assyrian Empire to repent - it’s much more probable that they’d have just cut off his head.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, firstly it’s pretty much impossible for a Jewish prophet to convince the capital of the Assyrian Empire to repent - it’s much more probable that they’d have just cut off his head.

Well, firstly, I thought all things were possible with God, even in the Old Testament times.

 

[razredge]

Well, firstly, I thought all things were possible with God, even in the Old Testament times.

Well, then why did the early Christians get fed to the lions or ended up as human streetlights in Rome?

Surely, the Romans would have all repented and converted since the apostles were just as divinely commissioned as Jonah.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, then why did the early Christians get fed to the lions or ended up as human streetlights in Rome?

Surely, the Romans would have all repented and converted since the apostles were just as divinely commissioned as Jonah.

Ahhhh, but our repentance is not due to someone’s “divine commission”. Our repentance is first due to God’s Grace. Maybe God showered a little extra on the Grace side for the Ninevites.