Jonah Story Literal or not?

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I don’t recall the source of where I heard this, but there are also theories that the Jonah narrative is the retelling of an ancient Semitic solar/sun myth. I don’t recall the details; it’s been quite a while since I last saw the reference.
 
MasterHaster said:
The way the Church uses “literal” might be a way to hedge that something didn’t factually happen. For example, the Church allows a non-literal reading of the Creation account.
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There is no such thing as a non-literal reading of the Creation account.
The literal sense is always the primary sense.
What’s the difference between literal and factual?
 
It seems strange to me how someone can simultaneously believe in the Incarnation, Resurrection, Real Presence, and Parousia, but then be dismissive of lesser things - like Jonah, or the splitting of the Red Sea, etc. These are shadows of the reality we now live in. No, it is not necessarily binding in faith in the same way, but certainly a hermeneutic of faith does not tell us to read these stories in another way - unless there are clear clues in the text or in the context of their composition.

Jonah is one of my favorite books of Scripture - it is like an anti-Gospel, which explains the Messiah by showing what He isn’t. It’s fantastic. The Messiah loves the Gentiles so much that He wants to die for them… with Jonah, everything is flipped (including some images - like with the boat). And the plant - oh, the plant! It gets me every time! It’s the Old Covenants! Christ is eating them up (think of the fig tree), making the sun shine on all equally! (That’s Augustine’s reading anyway.)

Here’s a cool vid worth a watch (these guys are Protestants but they have a lot of good Old Testament stuff, even if not all is perfect):
 
If the literal sense is always the primary sense, and yet much of Genesis cannot be scientific fact, then literal and factual are not the same thing.
Mainstream Church bible scholars and theologians have held from ancient times that the creation account in Genesis is something like a work of inspired poetry.

At the same time Genesis has a literal sense and,
has deeper spiritual senses as well. (CCC expands on this in the section referenced above).
Any parable is a great example of something that has a literal sense while the details do not convey scientific or historic facts.

It’s peculiar to modernist Christians (ie fundamentalists) that factual and literal are conflated as the same thing.
For example: if it says a hammered metal dome was formed over the sky, then it is really there.
 
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kapp19 said:
It seems strange to me how someone can simultaneously believe in the Incarnation, Resurrection, Real Presence, and Parousia, but then be dismissive of lesser things - like Jonah, or the splitting of the Red Sea, etc. These are shadows of the reality we now live in. No, it is not necessarily binding in faith in the same way, but certainly a hermeneutic of faith does not tell us to read these stories in another way - unless there are clear clues in the text or in the context of their composition.

Jonah is one of my favorite books of Scripture - it is like an anti-Gospel, which explains the Messiah by showing what He isn’t. It’s fantastic. The Messiah loves the Gentiles so much that He wants to die for them… with Jonah, everything is flipped (including some images - like with the boat). And the plant - oh, the plant! It gets me every time! It’s the Old Covenants! Christ is eating them up (think of the fig tree), making the sun shine on all equally! (That’s Augustine’s reading anyway.)

Here’s a cool vid worth a watch (these guys are Protestants but they have a lot of good Old Testament stuff, even if not all is perfect):
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God can do anything God wants.
God also reveals himself in many ways.
Science is one way for man to discover the world that God created.

The Catholic Church appreciates the role of the sciences in discovering the world God made.
So it’s not enough to simply say God can do anything. That’s true and at the same time we are given the powers of reason and discovery to more fully appreciate that world.
 
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Hello, I was already familiar with this section in the catechism and the background you provided.

Since I’ve always been Catholic and find fundamentalist interpretations unattractive, I’ve never been troubled by it. But I’ve still always thought It’s kind of a weak explanation “it’s literal but not what everyone else means by literal.” Or it’s literal in the sense that it’s made of words and words mean what they say (tautology).
 
Jesus told them, “Our friend Lazarus is asleep, but I am going to awaken him.”
So the disciples said to him, “Master, if he is asleep, he will be saved.” But Jesus was talking about his death, while they thought that he meant ordinary sleep.
So then Jesus said to them clearly, “Lazarus has died…”
John 11:11-14
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Many times I have wished that Jesus would speak clearly. Sometimes I think Jonah was in a whale, but maybe I misunderstood and something else was meant. Jesus spoke in parables, why wouldn’t the Scriptures be filled wih them,

I have become accustomed to allowing God to speak in whatever fashion, and I just try hard to understand.
 
The genre of the Book of Jonah is literary satire. Could there have been a historical prophet Jonah who was swallowed by a whale? Maybe. However, our faith is not dependent on it. The Book of Jonah contains incredibly brilliant theological messages that are absolutely beneficial to our faith. Sometimes, we focus on the historicity of biblical events but lose the important message that is trying to be conveyed.
 
And to respond to the argument that Jesus referenced Jonah so the events must be historically accurate, the story of Jonah was well-known to the Jews. Jesus used the stories embedded in Jewish culture to preach the Kingdom. And Jesus often used His own stories to convey truths. The people in the stories may be rooted in history, but the stories are told for theological purposes, not as a historical account. I think it would be more beneficial to hear the story as it is meant to be told so that we can properly maintain the message being conveyed.
 
DRB:Mark 4: 33 And with many such parables, he spoke to them the word, according as they were able to hear.
34 And without parable he did not speak unto them; but apart, he explained all things to his disciples.
I get that while “in public” you had the parables. In private he explained them. Unless you were in the privileged group, you figured it out, or remained ignorant. The privileged group kept it quiet apparently.
Dominus vobiscum
 
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What part in particular are you concerned about? if you don’t mind me asking?

if you are referring to Jonah “living” in the whale for three days I might have an interesting answer for you.
 
I don’t see anywhere that the boat had thoughts of it’s own…maybe bad translation?

I learned this from Dr. Brandt Pitre: maybe Jonah wasn’t “alive” even though we hear him talking from the belly of the whale. Maybe Jonah actually died!

Isn’t it interesting that he says “from the womb of Sheol I cried for help…” (Jonah 2:3)? You don’t tend to go to Sheol while you are still alive in the Old Testament. This would further emphasize Jesus statement in Matthew 12:38-42: “…Yet no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah…”

Just as Jesus died and was raised after three days…maybe Jonah was as well. The fact that people tend to read Jonah as being alive is probably a common misconception because at least in my bible nowhere does it say he was alive, it just says “…he remained in the belly of the fish…” and then “…the Lord commanded the fish to vomit Jonah upon dry land.” It might be a case of people reading into the text instead of just going with what it says.
 
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kapp19 said:
Jonah is one of my favorite books of Scripture - it is like an anti-Gospel, which explains the Messiah by showing what He isn’t. It’s fantastic. The Messiah loves the Gentiles so much that He wants to die for them… with Jonah, everything is flipped (including some images - like with the boat). And the plant - oh, the plant! It gets me every time! It’s the Old Covenants! Christ is eating them up (think of the fig tree), making the sun shine on all equally! (That’s Augustine’s reading anyway.)
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Also, Jesus tells the Pharisees the sign they will get is the sign of Jonah. After 3 days, he will come back and take the kingdom from them and give it to the gentiles.
 
mr_silly said:
Its facial image has a congruence with the faces of Christ depicted on sixth century gold coins.
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I’m confused…

Are you then claiming the shroud is from the 6th century? The 6th century had no more idea of what Jesus looked like than anyone else did after the first century. This statement just didn’t make sense and I’m trying to understand your position. Thank you!
 
RobertAdams said:
It’s raining cats and dogs.
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You know there have been times when that has been factual, and literal, cows, sharks, cats, dogs, cars, boats, surfers, scuba divers, fish.
 
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