Jorge Garcia, husband and father of two, deported Jan 15 2018 (MLK Day)

[upant]

You are picking at an irrelevant detail while ignoring the real point which was thar those who say it is unfair cannot point to any real harm done to those who waited, other than their jealously that someone else is receiving a benefit. That was the message of the gospel and that was my point too. If you disagree, please tell me what harm they suffered specifically because compassion was shown to someone else. It didn’t make their wait any longer.

you don’t see the difference between waiting and doing it right versus cheating and illegal activity. what about years of lost opportunity?

 

[pnewton]

Would some people in favor of DACA, or some sort of legal favor to the undocumented, please address this idea of unfairness?

Easy. There is no path to entry for millions, much less to citizenship. Those who say everyone should wait in line overlook there is no line.

Second, I also do not favor such restricted entry for anyone. So, yes, raising the amount who can enter to everyone who can come and get a job, pay taxes and be tracked, would be great.

Mr. Garcia is a criminal.

No, he is not. He has never committed a criminal act. If a man takes his 10 year old son with him when he robs a liquor store, we do not consider the boy an accomplice to the robbery.

We are not disputing the fact the he was breaking the law.

He did break the law, but not the criminal law. There is a huge distinction. Everyone breaks the law once they exceed the speed limit by one mph. One also breaks the law if he builds his fence in the wrong spot. The labeling, whether if be “criminal” when he is not a criminal or using the adjective “illegal” as a noun makes it easier for one to distance oneself from the humanity of a person, the exact opposite of Jesus, who lowered himself to our humanity. (Philippians 2)

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

You are picking at an irrelevant detail while ignoring the real point which was thar those who say it is unfair cannot point to any real harm done to those who waited, other than their jealously that someone else is receiving a benefit. That was the message of the gospel and that was my point too. If you disagree, please tell me what harm they suffered specifically because compassion was shown to someone else. It didn’t make their wait any longer.

you don’t see the difference between waiting and doing it right versus cheating and illegal activity. what about years of lost opportunity?

Of course there is a difference. But if we didn’t show compassion toward Jorge and his family, those people waiting in line would not be any closer to getting into the country. That act of compassion does not affect them. Read the Matthew 20:1-16 again and see if you think it was fair to those that spent the whole day working to get no more than the ones who hardly worked at all. You don’t see the difference between working all day and working for one hour? What about the hours of lost opportunity those all-day workers suffered? They could have been doing things at home, like the late-comers presumably did. Your argument, if it works at all, works just as well against Jesus’s story.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

we do not consider the boy an accomplice to the robbery.

If that boy after his 18th birthday goes to where his dad hid the money and decides to keep it he’s guilty of at the very least keeping stolen goods. By staying here after being told he was not allowed he decided to commit a crime.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

pnewton:

we do not consider the boy an accomplice to the robbery.

If that boy after his 18th birthday goes to where his dad hid the money and decides to keep it he’s guilty of at the very least keeping stolen goods. By staying here after being told he was not allowed he decided to commit a crime.

The legal definition of a crime is “An act or omission that violates the law and is punishable by a sentence of incarceration.” So for sake of argument let’s say remaining in the US without permission is a “crime”. Now let’s move on to whether certain violations of that law ought to be a candidate for exceptional handling. We have Presidential Pardons, for example, where someone convicted of a crime is set free. Most people who became familiar with the facts of Jorge’s case and some other cases very much like his would say that they are eligible for this exceptional treatment. That is why an overwhelming majority of Americans are in favor of some form of DACA relief, which would make Jorge legal, and not a criminal.

 

[Kei]

The bottom line is this we were given just one more lie, that ICE was focusing on criminals. Our administration, and the Chief Executive is the most dishonest public figure I know outside of the prison system. I do not know why anyone would ever want to cooperate with or trust the federal government under this President.

Well, you see, it was outside of this administration that he was told he had to leave. Don’t blame the administration for imposing it.

 

[upant]

Read the Matthew 20:1-16 again and see if you think it was fair to those that spent the whole day working to get no more than the ones who hardly worked at all.

it is the owners money, he can do what he wants.

the person who enters late gets to contract for his wage, he is entitled to what he negotiates.

the person who steals in has no contract.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Read the Matthew 20:1-16 again and see if you think it was fair to those that spent the whole day working to get no more than the ones who hardly worked at all.

it is the owners money, he can do what he wants.

It is the US people’s country. We can (through our leaders) pardon who we want.

What harm does it do to pardon Jorge Garcia?

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

It harms the people who have waited in line and done things the right way.
Aren’t you all about social justice?
It is patently unjust to the people who have done things the “right way”!

Also, I’m pretty sure that illegal immigrants harm our citizens who are at the low end of the socio-economic range. i.e. people who would have made at least minimum wage, are undercut by illegal immigrants who often work “under the table” for under minimum wage.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

It harms the people who have waited in line and done things the right way.

Wrong. Denying Mr. Garcia a pardon does not get anyone else into this country any quicker. It does not harm anyone.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

That is your opinion. I have personally talked to people in the ICE office who have been waiting for years. It does hurt them and their faith in the US government.

How about the economic / minimum wage issue?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

That is your opinion. I have personally talked to people in the ICE office who have been waiting for years. It does hurt them and their faith in the US government.

Sure, it hurts them to wait. But they are not waiting because somebody else was pardoned. They are waiting because that’s the way our immigration system is set up. If you feel sorry for them, then change the system. Denying a pardon to Mr. Garcia won’t change these people’s suffering one iota.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I’m Mexican American, fifth generation from my mom’s side and my dad was a illegal who was deported and I have not seen for 30 years. I’m 33. It was not the government that took him from me, it was his choices.

Choices have consequences. I understand Mexicans wanting to be here to get away from the hardcore violence and poverty of some parts of Mexico. But their choices will affect them and their kids. Now, there should be a way for kids brought here young to gain citizenship. But there is not right now so that is a factor someone who chooses to bring their kids here must come to terms with. I don’t like that the government is being blamed for breaking up famalies when it’s really the choices people have made that put them and or their kids in these situations. Men have to do what men have to do. This gentleman had a long time to figure out a plan. Sure, it can be argued day and night that it’s a unjust order to send him to Mexico but it is what it is. He did not comply so he’s being deported. I feel bad for his situation but that is life. Life is not fair. We, as men, roll with the punches. He must deal with the consequences of his parents choice. We all do sometimes. Just not on the same level but life is not fair.

I do hope there is a law in the future to help these kids who were brought here illegally but there is not right now. I think more responsibility should be placed on the one who brings their kids here illegally instead of blaming the “big bad bully government.” The government will always be unfair in ways. Anyone who pays taxes knows this because after a certain tax bracket the tax rate is unfair. Even God only asked for ten percent…

Further more, my girlfriends dad applied to enter the usa, forgot about it and like 10 years later was allowed to come here legally. He did and was later able to bring his kids, including my girlfriend, all legally. Others can do the same. Now he’s a citizen and my girl will become a citizen this year. Doing it right opened the door for his kids to be here legally and become citizens if they choose to do so. Seems like that is a better thing to do for ones children.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

Outstanding post. Thank you.

 

[SuperLuigi]

See, this is the problem. Most people who are here illegally have some sort of documentation. Why are we deporting people like this?

I’m guessing that people won’t necessarily take The New York Times’s word for it either:

We need to avoid the ad hominems. It’s pretty obvious what the Times motives are, but facts are facts.

 

[pnewton]

If that boy after his 18th birthday goes to where his dad hid the money and decides to keep it he’s guilty of at the very least keeping stolen goods. By staying here after being told he was not allowed he decided to commit a crime.

A crime is not something you can just make up out of desire to get rid of people. It is actually a criminal act to receive and knowingly be in possession of stolen property. If you think it should be, then that would require a change in immigration law, actually criminalizing that behavior, and take us in a direction even further away from the Catholic Church.

My biggest problem with this situation and our hypocrite in office is that he talks about the need to stop the rapist, murderers and gang members. Yet he is using the resources that could be spent on that for people like this. I would sure seem that getting rid of Mexicans in general is just as important as getting rid of what our wordsmith-in-chief called “bad people.”

 

[pnewton]

pnewton:

The bottom line is this we were given just one more lie, that ICE was focusing on criminals. Our administration, and the Chief Executive is the most dishonest public figure I know outside of the prison system. I do not know why anyone would ever want to cooperate with or trust the federal government under this President.

Well, you see, it was outside of this administration that he was told he had to leave. Don’t blame the administration for imposing it.

My apologies if I missed that, is this article more than a year old?

I just checked it, and it is recent. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised in this generation. The buck stops anywhere but with us, even if you are the president. The greatest generation has passed and now we are in the weasliest.

 

[pnewton]

I feel bad for his situation but that is life. Life is not fair.

I wonder if “feeling bad” is the same thing as compassion. I would think compassion, at least for a Christian, should mirror that of Jesus:

Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. - Matthew 9:35-36

I am know one’s judge, especially those to who I do not know, but it would seem that feeling bad without the compassion that moves our feet, our mouth and our hands, as well as our heart, is rather inadequate.

I also am a little confused by your point. On one hand, you argue that such things are unavoidable because life is not fair. But then you compare this man’s situation to others as if we need to be fair.

 

[upant]

What harm does it do to pardon Jorge Garcia?

that is the point, he wasn’t granted amnesty. he was to voluntarily depart. he did not. he made his own bed

how many people are in jail for small amounts of weed? why don’t we pardon them? think of the families that would be reunited,

illegal immigrants harm our citizens who are at the low end of the socio-economic range.

illegal immigration may create a strain on public services.

schools and hospitals in some urban areas are already stressed. Illegal immigration may add to this problem.

by increasing demand, illegal immigration may drive up costs for low-income rental housing.

etc. etc. etc.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

What harm does it do to pardon Jorge Garcia?

that is the point, he wasn’t granted amnesty.

I know. I asked what harm would it do to pardon him now, or pass DACA?

how many people are in jail for small amounts of weed?

Typical whataboutism deflection that is not dependent on the outcome of this case.

illegal immigrants harm our citizens who are at the low end of the socio-economic range.

Mr. Garcia is not taking jobs away from the low end of the sociio-economic range. He has a thriving landscaping business and is growing the economy, the same as you, I suppose.

schools and hospitals in some urban areas are already stressed. Illegal immigration may add to this problem.

by increasing demand, illegal immigration may drive up costs for low-income rental housing.

So you just naturally assume that the child of an illegal immigrant must be living in low-income housing? Shame!