Joseph Smith and Swedenborgianism

[why_me]

And of course we are way off topic at this point. The problem with Mormons has nothing to do with the life a faithful Mormon leads. The problem is the complete absurdity of their founding documents such as the Book of Mormon. I am completely satisfied their founding documents have been proven to be false. The Swedenborgian connection is just one evidence of that.

The book of mormon is not that absurd. And although I can understand why you feel that way, in fact, many who investigate the lds church are swayed by that book, especially after praying about its truthfulness.

The strange thing about that book is that it hasn’t been proven false. And as you know, it will never be proven true either. To prove the book true, would ensure the existence of god which is not god’s plan.

Swedenborg is an interesting case. I have read his section on heaven and did not find too many comparisons. It is true that he gave degrees to heaven but such a finding by him shows that he used his intellect to dissect heaven. Nothing unusual. But I see no other comparison.

 

[majick275]

and many who have read the Koran have been swayed by that book especially after praying about it’s truthfullness…what does that prove?

some of the witnesses to the BOM were convinced of the truthfullness of the revelations of the shakers, James Strang and others.

the absurdities of the BoM are that it paints a picture of the pre-colombian americas that is very different from that which we now know to have actually existed. There is also the fact that it’s was brought to us by Joseph Smith who is an obvious false prophet. Mormon doctrine isn’t even consistent with the BoM either. it’s instructins have been overruled on many occasions by the D&C.

It has certainly been proven false on numerous points.

 

[why_me]

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=16788&hl=swedenborg

Here is one such discussion on the mormon apologetics board.

It always ends up with people believing what they want to believe. Such is the way of life.

 

[why_me]

and many who have read the Koran have been swayed by that book especially after praying about it’s truthfullness…what does that prove?

some of the witnesses to the BOM were convinced of the truthfullness of the revelations of the shakers, James Strang and others.

the absurdities of the BoM are that it paints a picture of the pre-colombian americas that is very different from that which we now know to have actually existed. There is also the fact that it’s was brought to us by Joseph Smith who is an obvious false prophet. Mormon doctrine isn’t even consistent with the BoM either. it’s instructins have been overruled on many occasions by the D&C.

It has certainly been proven false on numerous points.

You should take your information on the road. I am sure that you will make an impact in converting mormons away from their faith. Also, being a false prophet as you said, shows that you know little about JS. Read Rough Stone Rolling for a more complete picture of JS.

 

[majick275]

while we do have free choice it doesn’t mean all choices are okay. God has given a church. he didn’t take it away and he didn’t abandon it. As a Catholic I have to state that he wants us here. all the great lifestyles and good works in the world don’t change that.

 

[BartBurk]

The book of mormon is not that absurd. And although I can understand why you feel that way, in fact, many who investigate the lds church are swayed by that book, especially after praying about its truthfulness.

The strange thing about that book is that it hasn’t been proven false. And as you know, it will never be proven true either. To prove the book true, would ensure the existence of god which is not god’s plan.

Swedenborg is an interesting case. I have read his section on heaven and did not find too many comparisons. It is true that he gave degrees to heaven but such a finding by him shows that he used his intellect to dissect heaven. Nothing unusual. But I see no other comparison.

When I joined the Mormon Church 30+ years ago I was very impressed by the Mormon people. I was unable to believe in the Book of Mormon and prayed and prayed and prayed about it. Finally, one Sunday I found a quiet place out in the woods and prayed for two hours asking God to show me the Book of Mormon was true. Nothing happened. I told that to the missionary who was teaching me, and he said, “You already know it is true so you don’t need anymore.” I desperately wanted to believe it was true and was ready to accept his word for it. I was baptized shortly after that. I was 19 years old and had not been a member of any church prior to that time. I continued to feel good about the Mormon Church and even thought I “felt the Spirit” on occasions.

A strange thing happened as I grew older. I kept reading. The facts coming out made the Book of Mormon more and more doubtful. I never had a direct answer to prayer telling me it was true, but I continued to accept it because I wanted it to be true and was happy in my Mormon lifestyle. I liked the people a lot and really believed living like a Mormon would make anyone happier. I still believe that to some extent. Unfortunately, the evidence against the Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures (especially the Book of Abraham) has continued to pile up. And another strange thing happened. As I started attending Protestant services and Catholic masses, I “felt the Spirit” just like I did while attending Mormon meetings. Sometimes I even felt it more than I did attending Mormon meetings. And I felt the same thing watching “Field of Dreams”! Did that make “Field of Dreams” the only true movie?

At some point we really have to look at the evidence and consider probabilities. You can never prove the Book of Mormon is not true because you can’t prove a negative. You can certainly assign probabilities and the probability is about 99.9% that the Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures are simply 19th century creations. When I began to read the Early Church Fathers, I began to see they validated Catholic teachings. I can’t find much evidence for Mormon teachings in the early Christian church. When the Early Church Fathers talk about the Eucharist for example, they always reflect Catholic teaching rather than accepting it as merely a symbol. The Catholic teaching on the Eucharist really was the clincher for me that Catholicism is the Church Christ founded. I didn’t have to pray about that – I have faith in Christ, the Catholic Church reflected the complete teaching of Christ, and so if I have faith in Christ my only real option is the Catholic Church.

I am very suspicious of feelings as a way to determine the truth. Sometimes my feelings cause me to doubt my faith so I have to look to something other than feelings to determine the truth. Sometimes I have to choose to have faith in spite of my feelings.

 

[why_me]

Also please go to the bible and read first corinthians 15:40-42

It is here that both swedenborg and smith received their understandings of heaven. And it is here that the comparison needs to be made.

 

[majick275]

perhaps you should the first chapter of Hebrews. it shows us that prophets are no longer required.

 

[majick275]

You should take your information on the road. I am sure that you will make an impact in converting mormons away from their faith. Also, being a false prophet as you said, shows that you know little about JS. Read Rough Stone Rolling for a more complete picture of JS.

isn’t that what you are doing here? using your “information” to try and convert catholics away form their faith? I’ve read bushman’s book, and Todd Comptons and Michael Quinn’s. I know quite a lot about Joseph Smith. He is a false prophet. all the wanting to become a God won’t change that. the fact that there are good people doing good things in the LDS church won’t change that either. the time and effort (and money) wasted on masonic rituals for the dead, the missionary crusade to foist off Joseph Smith as a savior (even to the point of praising him in sacrament hymns) all keep people away from the one true God. Repent and put away this foolish chasing after wizards that peep and mutter.

 

[BartBurk]

Also please go to the bible and read first corinthians 15:40-42

It is here that both swedenborg and smith received their understandings of heaven. And it is here that the comparison needs to be made.

But that is not the only place where Smith seems to get his teachings from Swedenborg. So I wouldn’t make the comparison there. Smith’s teachings on marriage seem to be borrowed from Swedenborg as well.

 

[why_me]

perhaps you should the first chapter of Hebrews. it shows us that prophets are no longer required.

Which of course says nothing about the verses in first corinthians that I gave above. The point I was trying to make that both Joseph Smith and Swedenborg probably thought long about those verses and reached conclusions. Swedenborg from intellect and JS from a different source.

 

[why_me]

isn’t that what you are doing here? using your “information” to try and convert catholics away form their faith? I’ve read bushman’s book, and Todd Comptons and Michael Quinn’s. I know quite a lot about Joseph Smith. He is a false prophet. all the wanting to become a God won’t change that. the fact that there are good people doing good things in the LDS church won’t change that either. the time and effort (and money) wasted on masonic rituals for the dead, the missionary crusade to foist off Joseph Smith as a savior (even to the point of praising him in sacrament hymns) all keep people away from the one true God. Repent and put away this foolish chasing after wizards that peep and mutter.

I am not trying to convert catholics to mormonism. Far from it. I am just replying to many of generalizations that have been made. Nothing more. Nothing is as simple as it seems.

 

[majick275]

the verses that you referenced are taken way out of context when used to support either swedenborg or smith (both of whom are wrong) these are merely comparisons used to teach the difference between mortal and immortal, physical and spiritual.

 

[majick275]

I am not trying to convert catholics to mormonism. Far from it. I am just replying to many of generalizations that have been made. Nothing more. Nothing is as simple as it seems.

i have to disagree. while not easy, salvation IS simple. there is right and wrong, there is truth and falsehood. in regards to mormonism either joseph smith was a true prophet or he was not. I believe that he is NOT! that makes it a simple case of denouncing him for misleading people and finding the real church. my journey has shown me that God would never abandon the world nor discard his church. believing in Christ that leaves me only the Catholic church.

 

[why_me]

When I joined the Mormon Church 30+ years ago I was very impressed by the Mormon people. I was unable to believe in the Book of Mormon and prayed and prayed and prayed about it. Finally, one Sunday I found a quiet place out in the woods and prayed for two hours asking God to show me the Book of Mormon was true. Nothing happened. I told that to the missionary who was teaching me, and he said, “You already know it is true so you don’t need anymore.” I desperately wanted to believe it was true and was ready to accept his word for it. I was baptized shortly after that. I was 19 years old and had not been a member of any church prior to that time. I continued to feel good about the Mormon Church and even thought I “felt the Spirit” on occasions.

A strange thing happened as I grew older. I kept reading. The facts coming out made the Book of Mormon more and more doubtful. I never had a direct answer to prayer telling me it was true, but I continued to accept it because I wanted it to be true and was happy in my Mormon lifestyle. I liked the people a lot and really believed living like a Mormon would make anyone happier. I still believe that to some extent. Unfortunately, the evidence against the Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures (especially the Book of Abraham) has continued to pile up. And another strange thing happened. As I started attending Protestant services and Catholic masses, I “felt the Spirit” just like I did while attending Mormon meetings. Sometimes I even felt it more than I did attending Mormon meetings. And I felt the same thing watching “Field of Dreams”! Did that make “Field of Dreams” the only true movie?

I can respect this very much. At least you are having a dialogue and not spewing hatred and ridicule like some of the other posters. I do believe that people can experience the spirit in other churches. I know that I have felt the presence of the holy spirit in the catholic church. The Roman Catholic church where I live at times has such a spirit. And why not? The church is a holy place.

From my perspective, god wants you inside the catholic church. Why? I have no idea but most likely it is because it is a place where you can do much good for people. And I am sure that this is what is happening. The mormon church was not the place for you. But the catholic church is. I know that I am a much better person now that I attend mass. I was far worse in righteousness when I attended the mormon church from time to time. But this was not the lds church’s fault. It just wasn’t for me at this time in my life. At least god brought me back to the catholic church to be surrounded by good people. But I still at times go to the lds service. They are good people also.

What is important is that we feel good about god and our own lives. We strive toward holiness and if this can done in the lds church for its members…I say fine. And if the catholic church, I say fine. No problem.

Thanks for your story.

 

[zerinus]

I am not trying to convert catholics to mormonism. Far from it. I am just replying to many of generalizations that have been made. Nothing more. Nothing is as simple as it seems.

I agree with that. If I was on an LDS forum, and somebody attacked Catholicism unfairly, I wouldn’t allow them to get away with it. I would defend the Catholic Church (or any other church for that matter) against unjust criticism. Joseph Smith said something to the same effect:

If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a “Mormon,” I am bold enough to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbytarian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination. (Teachings, p 313.)

I agree with that.

zerinus

 

[why_me]

I agree with that. If I was on an LDS forum, and somebody attacked Catholicism unfairly, I wouldn’t allow them to get away with it. I would defend the Catholic Church (or any other church for that matter) against unjust criticism. Joseph Smith said something to the same effect:

If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a “Mormon,” I am bold enough to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbytarian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination. (Teachings, p 313.)

I agree with that.

zerinus

Great quote! It has been my experience on lds forums that other religions are respected. Strange how the Mormon faith can come under such attack by other christian groups.

 

[PaulDupre]

Also please go to the bible and read first corinthians 15:40-42

It is here that both swedenborg and smith received their understandings of heaven. And it is here that the comparison needs to be made.

1Cor 15:40-42 does not imply that there are 3 Mormon heavens that separate family members from one another so that they cannot communicate with one another. It reflects Jesus’ teaching that those who are saved will be rewarded according to their works. Those whose works are most pure and most virtuous will receive the most glory. But everyone in heaven will be perfectly happy and together forever.

If you want to be with your family for eternity, you had better hope that Mormonism is false. If it is true, and your parents or siblings or children don’t measure up to every rule and regulation and donation asked of them, they are liable to be relegated to a different kingdom from you, and you will never see them again.

Paul

 

[why_me]

1Cor 15:40-42 does not imply that there are 3 Mormon heavens that separate family members from one another so that they cannot communicate with one another. It reflects Jesus’ teaching that those who are saved will be rewarded according to their works. Those whose works are most pure and most virtuous will receive the most glory. But everyone in heaven will be perfectly happy and together forever.

If you want to be with your family for eternity, you had better hope that Mormonism is false. If it is true, and your parents or siblings or children don’t measure up to every rule and regulation and donation asked of them, they are liable to be relegated to a different kingdom from you, and you will never see them again.

Paul

And this is the problem. Christian faiths have different interpretations. I bring up the bible verse to show where Joseph Smith and Swedenborg got their interpretation about heaven, nothing more.

One can reach different conclusions about the verse.

In the catholic faith, hell is huge made up of many people, including relatives. In the mormon faith, few go to hell but rather to separate kingdoms.

I have no idea what is better.

 

[zerinus]

Great quote! It has been my experience on lds forums that other religions are respected. Strange how the Mormon faith can come under such attack by other christian groups.

There is a reason for that. The reason is that LDS are sure of themselves, and their own theological position. When you are sure of yourself, you don’t become shaky in your boots because somebody believes something different, or even tries to persuade you of it. But if you are unsure of yourself, then every time somebody disagrees with you, you see that as a threat, and try to fight against it. In a sense, however, their fears are justified. They see us as a threat, and rightly so. We are a threat to them, because we have the truth and they don’t; and truth always prevails. Their condemnation lies in their hatred and rejection of the truth.

zerinus