Joseph Smith and the Need for the Restoration

[thecourt]

When Joseph Smith was seeking which church to join, if the true church existed at the time, there would have not been a need for a restoration. In 1820, he went into the grove of trees in upstate New York to pray asking which church he should join. I emphasize, it was not his intent to restore Christ’s church – he was seeking a answer to his place.

God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, telling him that he should not join any of the churches that existed — Protestant and Catholic churches. Eventually the restoration of the priesthood took place and the true church of Jesus Christ was organized, restoring the true church of Jesus Christ.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith not to join any church?

 

[TheosisM]

I guess we’ll just let thecourt think about the logic of his question for a little.

 

[Jay53]

When Joseph Smith was seeking which church to join, if the true church existed at the time, there would have not been a need for a restoration. In 1820, he went into the grove of trees in upstate New York to pray asking which church he should join. I emphasize, it was not his intent to restore Christ’s church – he was seeking a answer to his place.

God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, telling him that he should not join any of the churches that existed — Protestant and Catholic churches. Eventually the restoration of the priesthood took place and the true church of Jesus Christ was organized, restoring the true church of Jesus Christ.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith not to join any church?

Your premise has an assumption that one believes that God actually appeared to Joseph Smith and told him this. I, for one, do not for even one minute believe that. Perhaps you can provide some credible evidence?

Muslims claim the same thing - that Muhammad is the prophet of Allah. How do we know? It’s in the Quran! How do we know the Quran is right? Muhammad said so! Etc. Etc.

 

[Harpazo]

When Joseph Smith was seeking which church to join, if the true church existed at the time, there would have not been a need for a restoration. In 1820, he went into the grove of trees in upstate New York to pray asking which church he should join. I emphasize, it was not his intent to restore Christ’s church – he was seeking a answer to his place.

God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, telling him that he should not join any of the churches that existed — Protestant and Catholic churches. Eventually the restoration of the priesthood took place and the true church of Jesus Christ was organized, restoring the true church of Jesus Christ.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith not to join any church?

You’re going to have to do better than that.

Could it be that Joseph Smith was deceived by demons? Hmm, funny that many people who prayed for which Church to join in my church all became Orthodox. The true Church did exist at the time. Whether Smith was looking for something that suited his wants could have been a major factor in his founding of the LDS. He’s no different than any other founder of a Protestant sect. He did not like what was available so he created something novel.

The Mormon god is not like the Christian God at all. The Christian God promised that He would be “with them until the end of the age.” The Mormon god says that the Church fell away (the point in time when an apostasy occurred is not known apparently). The Christian God gives us a faith “once and for all delivered to the Saints” and is “the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.” The Mormon god conveniently abrogates teachings in favor of new ones, e.g. polygamy and blacks.

The list could go on and on. The Mormons are clearly the “Johnny-come-lately,” with no connection to the Church of Jesus Christ, save using some names and a book Christians use. May God lead you to the truth.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Eucharisted]

You know, we never did get around to figuring out who was the greatest prophet, Mohammed or Joseph Smith. The thread got sidetracked, I believe.

Recommended Reading:
How to refute the Great Apostasy
The Bible confirms the gospel but attacks false prophets
The Catholic Church Fathers

 

[thecourt]

I guess we’ll just let thecourt think about the logic of his question for a little.

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

 

[thecourt]

Your premise has an assumption that one believes that God actually appeared to Joseph Smith and told him this. I, for one, do not for even one minute believe that. Perhaps you can provide some credible evidence?

Muslims claim the same thing - that Muhammad is the prophet of Allah. How do we know? It’s in the Quran! How do we know the Quran is right? Muhammad said so! Etc. Etc.

The credible evidence was Joseph Smith never denying the First Vision, regardless all the “different versions” that are thrown out.

 

[Eucharisted]

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

Because it isn’t necessary and the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. Any man can found a church, but only God founded His Church, as He said: “You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church…”

 

[thecourt]

You’re going to have to do better than that.

Could it be that Joseph Smith was deceived by demons? Hmm, funny that many people who prayed for which Church to join in my church all became Orthodox. The true Church did exist at the time. Whether Smith was looking for something that suited his wants could have been a major factor in his founding of the LDS. He’s no different than any other founder of a Protestant sect. He did not like what was available so he created something novel.

The Mormon god is not like the Christian God at all. The Christian God promised that He would be “with them until the end of the age.” The Mormon god says that the Church fell away (the point in time when an apostasy occurred is not known apparently). The Christian God gives us a faith “once and for all delivered to the Saints” and is “the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.” The Mormon god conveniently abrogates teachings in favor of new ones, e.g. polygamy and blacks.

The list could go on and on. The Mormons are clearly the “Johnny-come-lately,” with no connection to the Church of Jesus Christ, save using some names and a book Christians use. May God lead you to the truth.

In Christ,
Andrew

Well I knew this was going to bring the recycled garbage — but must I forget that people have issues with my church. I submit their issues are their unwilliness to see the recognition of the truth. Attacking my church and Joseph Smith are just the never ending sideshows.

 

[amontoya]

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

It isn’t necessary.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith not to join any church?

They didn’t.

 

[TheosisM]

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

Because it wasn’t necessary. You’re operating from the premise that 1) a Great Apostasy occurred; 2) a Restoration was necessary; 3) the Father and the Son appeared to Smith; 4) that the Restoration occurred through Smith and not the host of others who claim/claimed to restore the “true church of Jesus Christ”

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, then a restoration was not necessary. We do not believe that God appeared to Joseph Smith, anymore than we believe that God appeared to or talked to any other “prophets” to restore a lost church, that the angel Gabriel appeared to Muhammed, etc.

As others have stated, first you have to prove the above premise(s) before one can entertain the question of, if Catholicism is the true Church, why would God tell Joseph Smith not to join any church.

 

[thecourt]

It isn’t necessary.

They didn’t.

So I not read any reason that validates the truth of Catholicism. Why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith, the churches that existed at the time, none were his Christ’s true church?

Basically he told the churches that existed the churches, draw to me (Christ) with their lips, yet their hearts were far me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. For me, Catholicism is what it claims, how do you explain doctrines created by you? This shows me further the lack of characteristics such a revelation that is lacking in Catholicism. If revelation existed, no man made doctrine would be necessary.

 

[teachccd]

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

First off, the Catholic Church never claimed the need for restoration. There were some necessary reforms needed but that is a huge difference. My question to you would be why would you accept the King James Version of scripture if it was maintained and translated by an apostate church? And in the King James Version we can quote Jesus as saying in Matthew chapter 16 verse 18, “And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. Did Jesus fail us in this promise?

In the Book of Mormon we find that in 1 Nephi 13:32 we are told about this “abominable church” which kept back the gospel of the Lamb. In 1 Nephi 13: 5-9 we read that satan was the founder of this “abominable church”. Gee, I wonder what Church that refers to? Anyway, you have no credibility when you claim that there was an apostate church that needed restoration. Your acceptance of the King James Version of Scripture verifies that you do indeed accept the authority of the Chruch that acknowledged, maintained and interprets the Written Word of God. You cannot hold that there was an apostate Church and then hold to the authority of the New Testament. Those two ideas are in complete contradiction…God Bless…teachccd

 

[Eucharisted]

Well I knew this was going to bring the recycled garbage — but must I forget that people have issues with my church. I submit their issues are their unwilliness to see the recognition of the truth. Attacking my church and Joseph Smith are just the never ending sideshows.

Yeah, that’s all we Catholics and Orthodox do. Just bash you guys night and day, day and night. We would never ever try to lead you to the truth. We would never ever try to show you the errors of Joseph Smith, of the Book of Mormons, and of your church in general, for your greater good and your salvation. No one on CAF has ever, since the first day of this forum, ever tried to show a Mormon the truth. We’ve only been insulting, bashing, and hating you guys since the dawn of time. Because we totally hate the truth and totally hate you guys too.

I’m being sarcastic, by the way.

 

[Jay53]

The credible evidence was Joseph Smith never denying the First Vision, regardless all the “different versions” that are thrown out.

So if I make something up and refuse to deny that it is false until the day I die, that makes it true? You’ll have to come up with something better than that. Muhammad refused to deny the Quran - does that make his “revelations” true?

 

[teachccd]

So I not read any reason that validates the truth of Catholicism. Why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith, the churches that existed at the time, none were his Christ’s true church?

Again refer to Matthew 16:18

Basically he told the churches that existed the churches, draw to me (Christ) with their lips, yet their hearts were far me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. For me, Catholicism is what it claims, how do you explain doctrines created by you? This shows me further the lack of characteristics such a revelation that is lacking in Catholicism. If revelation existed, no man made doctrine would be necessary.

Your words are useless when you have no back up. What are these “man made” doctrines that you question and oppose? The Eucharist? Apostolic Succession? The very nature of God? Just what are these “man made” doctrines?

 

[thecourt]

So if I make something up and refuse to deny that it is false until the day I die, that makes it true? You’ll have to come up with something better than that. Muhammad refused to deny the Quran - does that make his “revelations” true?

Catholics in general are threatened with the fact their church is not what you claim – putting the need of the restoration to the side, why would the Protestant reformers state Catholicism was not the church of Jesus Christ.

 

[teachccd]

Yeah, that’s all we Catholics and Orthodox do. Just bash you guys night and day, day and night. We would never ever try to lead you to the truth. We would never ever try to show you the errors of Joseph Smith, of the Book of Mormons, and of your church in general, for your greater good and your salvation. No one on CAF has ever, since the first day of this forum, ever tried to show a Mormon the truth. We’ve only been insulting, bashing, and hating you guys since the dawn of time. Because we totally hate the truth and totally hate you guys too.

I’m being sarcastic, by the way.

Actually when you read the quotes from the book of Mormon that I stated in my previous post it seems the opposite is true. And I am not being sarcastic…teachccd

 

[Eucharisted]

Catholics in general are threatened with the fact their church is not what you claim – putting the need of the restoration to the side, why would the Protestant reformers state Catholicism was not the church of Jesus Christ.

So are you really looking for an answer or are you trolling?

 

[thecourt]

Again refer to Matthew 16:18

Your words are useless when you have no back up. What are these “man made” doctrines that you question and oppose? The Eucharist? Apostolic Succession? The very nature of God? Just what are these “man made” doctrines?

One of the man made doctrines is “your selection of the pope”. First of all, no man can take something, i.e. the priesthood, that is not his for the taking. Yet I do not know the number of men who have “chosen” or take the priesthood. Your man made process of the selection of the pope.