Joseph Smith and the Need for the Restoration

[thecourt]

i dont know. i think he was visited. but not by “heavenly” messengers. he may have been visited by something appearing as an angel of light. being the final age before Christ return. let us remember that many are going to be deceived. this could have happened to joseph smith. its tragic really. we are talking about a person who very well was deceived. and i dont wish those eternal consequenses on anyone. Brother michael diamond give a very good description of what happens to those that do not accept the truth. it is terrifying to think of anybody having to suffer that for eternity. we need to pray that our mormon friends eyes be opened. do not think they will accept any testimony contrary to their doctrines unless the Holy Spirit opens their eyes. God bless you and yours.

Wrong!!! If the First Vision did not happen, then my church has not right to exist and profess the things we do.

The First Vision did happen and Joseph Smith never denied it. There is no deception. You folks believe that he was deceived. This continues to view by some that the heavens are closed and God does not speak to anyone anymore. That is wrong. Revelation continues now.

 

[ParkerD]

And I thank you for your consideration of my frustration and your willingness to reply. Now, let me further ask of the same three questions as follows:
Continued in next post…

Hi, Teach CCD,
I hope you are having a very nice day. It is beautiful where I live. Sundays are very special to me. I’m grateful that the Ten Commandments include keeping the Sabbath Day holy. I’ll try and answer, perhaps briefly due to time constraints.

(1) When I speak of the King James Version I am speaking of the canonicity of scripture in its entirety not just William Tyndale’s translation. I speak of the acknowledgement of scripture and those who maintained the accuracy throughout the centuries of time. If the Church went apostate after the death of the last apostle how was scripture (New Testament) recognized as being 27 books and as being inspired at all?

The Jews were the keepers of the records that became the Bible. The Catholic compilers “borrowed” the records from the Jews. They did a good thing, generally speaking, in compiling and preserving Biblical records, but they weren’t the originators of those records.

To acknowledge a compilation as being “sacred text” does not mean it is acknowledging that the compilers have the complete and correct understanding of the compilation. The text stands by itself as either inspired or not, regardless of the compiler or even the intent of the compiler. (But I imagine most had very good intentions, except sometimes in choice of translated words and choice of whether to allow translations to occur at all.)

(2) Your understanding that God can work through imperfect people is true since He does that all the time but these imperfect people were the Church as a whole and the Church today (yours included) accepts the authority of its decision on the canonicity of Scripture. If you accept that authority what premise do you use to say that any other authority by this same group (the Church ) is not to be accepted?

The LDS use the KJV as the accepted translation, not the Vulgate or its derivatives. Authority is granted by God, and has never been an automatic given. To be preserved, authority must always acknowledge the fountain of the knowledge, and that fountain is direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit, without the interpretations of men getting in the way.

(3) In other words, by what authority does your Church believe that the decisions rendered by those belonging to an “apostate” Church can be right in acknowledging and maintaining Scripture and be wrong in every other aspect?

“Apostate” means simply “impure with impure doctrine.” When people decided to change the doctrine to make it more acceptable or more universally compatible, then they moved in a wrong direction and away from the authority granted by God. That doesn’t make them “wrong in every other aspect.” It makes them wrong in no longer having pure doctrine, but it can still lead people to Christ and to repentance and forgiveness, just lack the sanctification process through the Holy Spirit leading to becoming a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ.

(4) You must read the verse as it is written in Matthew 16:18. Jesus said. Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH and the GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL. How could this possibly make sense if His Church went apostate (Non-existent) after the death of the last apostle?

Jesus had a longer view of time than one century or two or three centuries. He was omniscient, and viewed the whole of human history backwards and forwards. “Shall not prevail” means “shall not succeed”, and those gates (the closing of the door to hell) shall not succeed. Christ will open those doors at the end of the Millenium, with His keys.

Christ is the rock, the foundation, the chief corner stone. See Peter’s teachings on this subject. They are very profound. Peter also spoke about Christ visiting spirit prison (hell) and teaching those who had gone there. (1 Peter 3:18-19, 1 Peter 4:6)

(5) What Church did Jesus build?

Jesus built a church based on a foundation of apostles and prophets with Himself as the chief corner stone. The church is comprised of the believers and followers who follow Him.

(6) Why would He say that knowing that His Church would be destroyed and the “restored” some 1800 years later?

Because He knew of the prophecies about the dragon or the serpent temporarily prevailing over the saints of the most High, and it would have been important for the apostles (including especially Peter and John) to understand that even though they would see the church struggle with many impure teachings being brought in as the Jews and Gentiles would become members of the church, His work would and will ultimately prevail.

(7) If the Church went apostate then the gates of hell did prevail in destroying what Jesus built whether or not you believe it was built on Peter. What would you say to convince me that Jesus was wrong and Joseph Smith was right?

No–it didn’t destroy what Jesus built. Jesus built a pure church, with pure teachings. The pure teachings are in the Bible. Joseph Smith identified the pure teachings, and was able to bring them forward for the understanding of others and for the personal witness of the Holy Spirit to each person who wants to get the pure teachings of the Bible.

 

[ParkerD]

More for Teach CCD:

(8) Did God simply allow Jesus (The Son of God) to build a Church that would fall apart but have a mere man, Joseph Smith, come around 1800 years later to be a prophet of God when Jesus was prophecy fulfilled?

God allows imperfect people to do whatever they choose to do. That does not make God imperfect. It means He allows imperfections and is still able to do His perfect work among humankind.

(9) If God knew this to be true then why didn’t He simply postpone the coming of Jesus until the 1800’s?

He would of course fulfill the prophecies in the Old Testament. He inspired those prophecies. He also inspired John to write the Book of Revelation that prophesied of a restoration of truth to the earth through an angel from heaven.

(10) What makes the Church of Latter day Saints more attuned to Jesus’ desires than those who walked with Him and succeeded the apostles?

When those who “succeeded the apostles” broke away from following John who was still alive at the time, then they were no longer “attuned to Jesus’ desires” nor attuned to the Holy Spirit. They were acting on their own, and lost authority because of that. God had made them no guarantee, even though they presented their message as though He had.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Wrong!!! If the First Vision did not happen, then my church has not right to exist and profess the things we do.

Ding ding! We have a winner!

The First Vision did happen and Joseph Smith never denied it. There is no deception. You folks believe that he was deceived. This continues to view by some that the heavens are closed and God does not speak to anyone anymore. That is wrong. Revelation continues now.

No my friend, it is the view that God does not need to restore what was never lost. Therefore, any claim to this effect is false.

 

[ParkerD]

And that is the teachings and philosophy of the Catholic Church and has been for over 2000 years. You would have to prove to me that the Catholic Church teaches anything less than what you mentioned above. You made no mention of anything that hasn’t been taught by the Church for the last 2000 years. Like you mentioned earlier we are all made up of imperfect people so things did go haywire now and then throughout the last 2000 years but we must focus on the teachings of the Church and not the deviations of individuals.

Jesus founded a Church and that Church is still very much alive as He said it would be. The Catholic Church has had its troubles but it never went apostate. If it did then you would have no authority on which to rest your bible, whatever be the version. The closing of the canon was issued in the fourth century councils of Carthage and Hippo. I would be extremely weary of taking an authoritative decision made by an apostate Church and embracing it as a source of my faith. Using the “God works through imperfect people” does not work here since His apostles were impefect but they were not apostate. And neither was His Church.

Thank you again for your (name removed by moderator)ut and I would like to hear nore now that I expounded on my initial questions. You are very kind to take this time with me. God bless you now and always…teachccd

Teach CCD,
Being a “joint heir” means becoming like Jesus Christ, who is perfect and is omniscient and is omnipotent and is completely full of love, yet allows agency. It means to inherit the divine throne of Sonship that He inherits by right, which others inherit by grace.

It also means that one who accepts that doctrine, will not see the need for any other person to be an intercessor other than Jesus Christ–no saint, no “mother”, no “early Father” nor current “Papa”. It means that perfect intercession that Christ has accomplished and is still accomplishing, will place people who have pursued a course to become “like Him” in this life, though imperfect, will not suffer any kind of “purgatory” preparation in the spirit world, but will continue to learn through the Holy Spirit as they prepare to become like Him and inherit what He promised.

 

[thecourt]

RebeccaJ is wrong. If the Protestant reformers did not what they did and God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph, answering his question that Christ’s true church was not on the earth, the apostasy happened.

Catholicism will never recognize they are not the true church and the rest of all if we do not join you, we are going to hell.

I am not going to hell regardless of Catholicism.

 

[teachccd]

Teach CCD,
Being a “joint heir” means becoming like Jesus Christ, who is perfect and is omniscient and is omnipotent and is completely full of love, yet allows agency. It means to inherit the divine throne of Sonship that He inherits by right, which others inherit by grace.

It also means that one who accepts that doctrine, will not see the need for any other person to be an intercessor other than Jesus Christ–no saint, no “mother”, no “early Father” nor current “Papa”. It means that perfect intercession that Christ has accomplished and is still accomplishing, will place people who have pursued a course to become “like Him” in this life, though imperfect, will not suffer any kind of “purgatory” preparation in the spirit world, but will continue to learn through the Holy Spirit as they prepare to become like Him and inherit what He promised.

I am having a nice day as it is beautiful here in California as well. You are very articulate and present your postition in an ecumenical and professional manner unlike the other poster on this thread who just throws out insults. Thank you for that.

I am leaving for Mass in the next few minutes so I will have to respond in the very near future. I hope that you will still be here as I think that our dialogue will benefit my understanding of your faith as well as underscore my perspectives.

God bless you and I will talk to you soon…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

RebeccaJ is wrong. If the Protestant reformers did not what they did and God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph, answering his question that Christ’s true church was not on the earth, the apostasy happened.

Catholicism will never recognize they are not the true church and the rest of all if we do not join you, we are going to hell.

I am not going to hell regardless of Catholicism.

Now that’s a convincing thought!! It’s another stomp your feet and because I said so argument…

 

[mrparker]

I am having a nice day as it is beautiful here in California as well. You are very articulate and present your postition in an ecumenical and professional manner unlike the other poster on this thread who just throws out insults. Thank you for that.

I am leaving for Mass in the next few minutes so I will have to respond in the very near future. I hope that you will still be here as I think that our dialogue will benefit my understanding of your faith as well as underscore my perspectives.

God bless you and I will talk to you soon…teachccd

This is a real gospel discussion. I have great respect for you both ParkerD and teachcc and the attitude you present here.

I too must leave now, but I will return and read through all the earlier posts, as this seems a worthy discussion to be involved in.

 

[teachccd]

The Jews were the keepers of the records that became the Bible. The Catholic compilers “borrowed” the records from the Jews. They did a good thing, generally speaking, in compiling and preserving Biblical records, but they weren’t the originators of those records.

All of Christianity originated with the Jewish people. The Jews who first followed Christ were known as “The Way” and later called Christian. Catholic is an adjective which means, “on the whole” or loosely translated as universal. It was the Jewish people who followed Christ or the first “Christians” that wrote down the revelation that we since have held as inspired Scripture. However many early century writings claimed inspiration and God entrusted these writings to an inspired Church in order that they could be properly descerned as to their place in the canon. So it is evident that the early Church (Catholic) did indeed spread the message of Jesus whether by oral or written tradition. (Cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:15)

To acknowledge a compilation as being “sacred text” does not mean it is acknowledging that the compilers have the complete and correct understanding of the compilation. The text stands by itself as either inspired or not, regardless of the compiler or even the intent of the compiler. (But I imagine most had very good intentions, except sometimes in choice of translated words and choice of whether to allow translations to occur at all.)

Yes, but as you can see God had to entrust these sacred texts to those who were inspired by the same Holy Spirit that inspired the writers of these texts. You are correct that the Scriptures contain revelations that go beyond our human comprehension but then so did the very acts of Jesus with the apostles. But, as is very evident in Scripture, Jesus gives authority to His apostles to bind and loose thus allowing them to “stand in the place of” Jesus and Jesus would ratify their decisions. These apostles were members of the Church and their successors would have to carry on as Jesus promised in Matthew 16:18. To say otherwise would just be presenting a stance and not following what Christ Himself has taught. just to say that a Church went off the beaten path with false doctrine is simply hearsay when we see the evolution of the Christian Church and how it upholds the very teachings of the apostles.

The LDS use the KJV as the accepted translation, not the Vulgate or its derivatives. Authority is granted by God, and has never been an automatic given. To be preserved, authority must always acknowledge the fountain of the knowledge, and that fountain is direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit, without the interpretations of men getting in the way.

Yes, I agree but when you say that you use the KJV which one are you using? There were three revisions since the original translation of 1610. You say that authority is granted by God and I truly agree but authority granted through who? Who was the inspired person given the authority to acknowledge that the KJV is the true translation and the latin Vulgate is not? The LDS is united in accepting the KJV. How did that come about? How did God reveal that this is the accepted translation and why would God have given the 17th century Church that translation 200 years prior to Joseph Smith’s revelation? Would He allow people to misuse and not understand His word for 200 years? Our God is a God of reason so mentioning that chronology bears no fruit here does not hold water.

“Apostate” means simply “impure with impure doctrine.” When people decided to change the doctrine to make it more acceptable or more universally compatible, then they moved in a wrong direction and away from the authority granted by God. That doesn’t make them “wrong in every other aspect.” It makes them wrong in no longer having pure doctrine, but it can still lead people to Christ and to repentance and forgiveness, just lack the sanctification process through the Holy Spirit leading to becoming a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ.

What can you say to convince me that the LDS is not apostate? What exactly is there in your theology that would be a hands down indication that the first 1800 years of the Church had false doctrine and then the LDS now holds the truth? Wouldn’t a Church that evolved from those who walked with Jesus seem to have a closer connection to His teachings? Whose to say that even if Joseph Smith did receive the revelation that your congregations didn’t follow suit of the early Church and stray again? If it happened once why couldn’t it happen again? Aren’t the members of the LDS just as weak as those who immediately followed Christ?

continued in next post…

 

[Kaninchen]

I should tune into these Mormon threads more often, it really does sound eerily familiar.

 

[teachccd]

Jesus had a longer view of time than one century or two or three centuries. He was omniscient, and viewed the whole of human history backwards and forwards. “Shall not prevail” means “shall not succeed”, and those gates (the closing of the door to hell) shall not succeed. Christ will open those doors at the end of the Millenium, with His keys.

That is pure speculation and could be said about anything that one wishes to change. You say that Jesus had a longer view of time and I say that He intended a continuation of what He started.

Christ is the rock, the foundation, the chief corner stone. See Peter’s teachings on this subject. They are very profound. Peter also spoke about Christ visiting spirit prison (hell) and teaching those who had gone there. (1 Peter 3:18-19, 1 Peter 4:6)

Yes Jesus is indeed the cornerstone and your other references do not seem to be in context with the meaning of the Church and Matthew 16:18. Please explain.

(5) What Church did Jesus build?
Jesus built a church based on a foundation of apostles and prophets with Himself as the chief corner stone. The church is comprised of the believers and followers who follow Him.

Right on!

Because He knew of the prophecies about the dragon or the serpent temporarily prevailing over the saints of the most High, and it would have been important for the apostles (including especially Peter and John) to understand that even though they would see the church struggle with many impure teachings being brought in as the Jews and Gentiles would become members of the church, His work would and will ultimately prevail.

Correct but it still does not annihilate the Church to the point of total destruction and in need of total restoration. I’ve yet to see what these impure teachings are and to what extent these impure teachings and the destruction of sound doctrine went. Can you list what Christ taught from Scripture and how each and every command was violated by the Church?

No–it didn’t destroy what Jesus built. Jesus built a pure church, with pure teachings. The pure teachings are in the Bible. Joseph Smith identified the pure teachings, and was able to bring them forward for the understanding of others and for the personal witness of the Holy Spirit to each person who wants to get the pure teachings of the Bible.

I’m waiting for that list. Pure teachings could never be given to the people better than what was given by Christ Himself. so then am I to conclude that the followers of Joseph Smith are more capable than the followers of Christ? I am absolutely perplexed at why God would allow the immediate followers of Christ to fall into darkness and yet illuminate those who follow Joseph Smith when Joseph Smith was prophesying and Jesus was the Word of God and prophecy fulfilled. Is it that the LDS is an elite group that can follow truth better that the early Church?

Now, please note that while some of my comments and questions come off fairly strong and to the point it is all done in charity and for the sake of discussion. If you feel offended by anything that I said please let me know. My Catholic faith is who I am. I have spoken with Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, many Christian denominations and Jews and Muslims. I am convinced that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ and that all of Her teachings are sound and profitable. I have discussions to better understand the different perspectives in the chance that I might misrepresent your beliefs to others. I value when someone speaks to me about my Catholic faith that they have the truth about what it is that we teach and not some preconceived notion from some propaganda that is biased. Have a great day and God bless you…teachccd

 

[choy]

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

if God appeared to Joseph Smith, he would have died
no human on earth will be able to see God’s face and live
its in the Bible

haven’t you thought that maybe the devil appeared to him pretending to be God? its also in the Bible that the devil can pretend to be an Angel of Light. this simply means the devil can appear in front of us and pretend to be of God so that we may be deceived.

 

[benidict]

Wrong!!! If the First Vision did not happen, then my church has not right to exist and profess the things we do.

The First Vision did happen and Joseph Smith never denied it. There is no deception. You folks believe that he was deceived. This continues to view by some that the heavens are closed and God does not speak to anyone anymore. That is wrong. Revelation continues now.

hello court. are you espousing Catholic teaching today, or lds teaching today. ive seen on another thread you cannot make up you mind wheather you are Catholic or Mormon. i have a hard time believing you are in either camp. what is your true affiliation? when we can establish this, i would be happy to have a conversation with you. until that time, you do the Mormons and the Catholics a diservice by making each look bad. there are very knowlegable mormons who are on these threads who i really enjoy hearing from. have you ever even read the BOM? or the Catholic Chatecism? please will the real court please stand up.praying for you and yours.

 

[benidict]

I should tune into these Mormon threads more often, it really does sound eerily familiar.

AWESOME!!! a jewish sister! welcome welcome welcome! may God greatly bless you and yours. shalom

 

[ParkerD]

All of Christianity originated with the Jewish people. The Jews who first followed Christ were known as “The Way” and later called Christian. Catholic is an adjective which means, “on the whole” or loosely translated as universal. It was the Jewish people who followed Christ or the first “Christians” that wrote down the revelation that we since have held as inspired Scripture. However many early century writings claimed inspiration and God entrusted these writings to an inspired Church in order that they could be properly descerned as to their place in the canon. So it is evident that the early Church (Catholic) did indeed spread the message of Jesus whether by oral or written tradition. (Cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Yes, but as you can see God had to entrust these sacred texts to those who were inspired by the same Holy Spirit that inspired the writers of these texts. You are correct that the Scriptures contain revelations that go beyond our human comprehension but then so did the very acts of Jesus with the apostles. But, as is very evident in Scripture, Jesus gives authority to His apostles to bind and loose thus allowing them to “stand in the place of” Jesus and Jesus would ratify their decisions. These apostles were members of the Church and their successors would have to carry on as Jesus promised in Matthew 16:18. To say otherwise would just be presenting a stance and not following what Christ Himself has taught. just to say that a Church went off the beaten path with false doctrine is simply hearsay when we see the evolution of the Christian Church and how it upholds the very teachings of the apostles.

Yes, I agree but when you say that you use the KJV which one are you using? There were three revisions since the original translation of 1610. You say that authority is granted by God and I truly agree but authority granted through who? Who was the inspired person given the authority to acknowledge that the KJV is the true translation and the latin Vulgate is not? The LDS is united in accepting the KJV. How did that come about? How did God reveal that this is the accepted translation and why would God have given the 17th century Church that translation 200 years prior to Joseph Smith’s revelation? Would He allow people to misuse and not understand His word for 200 years? Our God is a God of reason so mentioning that chronology bears no fruit here does not hold water.

What can you say to convince me that the LDS is not apostate? What exactly is there in your theology that would be a hands down indication that the first 1800 years of the Church had false doctrine and then the LDS now holds the truth? Wouldn’t a Church that evolved from those who walked with Jesus seem to have a closer connection to His teachings? Who’s to say that even if Joseph Smith did receive the revelation that your congregations didn’t follow suit of the early Church and stray again? If it happened once why couldn’t it happen again? Aren’t the members of the LDS just as weak as those who immediately followed Christ?

continued in next post…

Teach CCD,
I have been busy all day, and still have many family things to do with children at home and my wonderful wife, plus an extended family gathering in a little while.

Please understand that I respect your point of view and your faith and beliefs. The restoration will probably not make sense to someone who is not looking for more than they have in their religious understanding. One who is completely satisfied is able to stay with their own point of view very self-convinced. Christ was perfect at allowing agency in this world, and did that while at the same time placing the truths of His gospel right there in the Bible, yet each and every one of those truths can be “explained away.”

I went through many points of discussion that would answer your particular questions on another thread that had to do with the “church in hiding”, over a month ago. If you wish, you could read that thread. Otherwise, I’ll try and answer your questions but keep in mind the overall goal of the Savior’s mission was that humankind could really and truly become joint heirs with Him and be made perfect as He is perfect. If ever that goal is explained away or words are minced about it, then the direction of the doctrine has changed and the doctrine has become impure.

 

[PaulDupre]

I sent away for a correspondence course and learned to speak Parker-ese. Allow me to translate:

Teach CCD,
I have been busy all day, and still have many family things to do with children at home and my wonderful wife, plus an extended family gathering in a little while.

Translation: My Mormon family is better than your gentile family, just as I am better than you - let’s get that straight from the get-go.

Please understand that I respect your point of view and your faith and beliefs.

Translation: No I don’t. You belong to the church of the devil. You are scum.

The restoration will probably not make sense to someone who is not looking for more than they have in their religious understanding.

Translation: My exalted wisdom would not make sense to someone who is mentally lazy and not willing to use his brain to search for the truth that I possess.

One who is completely satisfied is able to stay with their own point of view very self-convinced.

Translation: Smug, mentally lazy people like you cannot be expected to understand the wisdom I have attained. I look down my nose at your shallow religion.

Christ was perfect at allowing agency in this world, and did that while at the same time placing the truths of His gospel right there in the Bible, yet each and every one of those truths can be “explained away.”

Translation: Jesus purposefully made the bible vague so that unenlightened people like you would not understand it, whereas superior people like me see between the lines and grasp the hidden meanings. Or maybe you are purposefully avoiding the truth to cover your sins…yeah that must be it.

 

[teachccd]

Teach CCD,
I have been busy all day, and still have many family things to do with children at home and my wonderful wife, plus an extended family gathering in a little while.

Please understand that I respect your point of view and your faith and beliefs. The restoration will probably not make sense to someone who is not looking for more than they have in their religious understanding. One who is completely satisfied is able to stay with their own point of view very self-convinced. Christ was perfect at allowing agency in this world, and did that while at the same time placing the truths of His gospel right there in the Bible, yet each and every one of those truths can be “explained away.”

I went through many points of discussion that would answer your particular questions on another thread that had to do with the “church in hiding”, over a month ago. If you wish, you could read that thread. Otherwise, I’ll try and answer your questions but keep in mind the overall goal of the Savior’s mission was that humankind could really and truly become joint heirs with Him and be made perfect as He is perfect. If ever that goal is explained away or words are minced about it, then the direction of the doctrine has changed and the doctrine has become impure.

Thank you for your time. I know what you mean about being busy since I, too had to sneak in time to respond as I am now.

Since I have the truth there is really no need to explore why a group would feel the need for a restoration. I also respect your beliefs as well but I find no basis for following such a belief. You are correct that every one of the truths in scripture can be “explained away” as is exhibited in the numerous splintering of Christianity including the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the other 33,000 denominations.

I brought up some good questions that I really wanted (name removed by moderator)ut but I will seek them elsewhere. Many times I have to search for my answers since the quesitons that I pose seem to corner those that I speak with and they go away. I get generic answers and when I ask for specifics they tend to either defer to another topic or disregard my question all together. I’m used to that and so I keep seeking as I did here with you. I’m not saying that this is what you are doing since you did extend the opportunity to check out your posts on another thread.

I’m never quite sure why atheists, Protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and many other belief systems come to this forum unless it is to evangelize. But please remember that most of us here have a solid Catholic faith and you will meet resistance. I hope that I showed the love of Christ and was not too forward. I just thought that while you were here I’d ask.

In Scripture Jesus asks, “Who do you say that I am?” I’ll bet He never thought He’d get so many answers…God bless…teachccd

 

[PaulDupre]

Christ was perfect at allowing agency in this world, and did that while at the same time placing the truths of His gospel right there in the Bible, yet each and every one of those truths can be “explained away.”

Like the plain truth of the Real Presence in the eucharist, for instance. Jesus said the bread and wine are His body and His blood - not representitive of, mind you, but actually are. St. Paul said it, too. Both in very plain language. Yet the Protestants and their post-Christian off-shoots (LDS, SDA, JW, etc) go through great mental gymnastics to “explain it away”.

 

[mrparker]

I brought up some good questions that I really wanted (name removed by moderator)ut but I will seek them elsewhere. Many times I have to search for my answers since the quesitons that I pose seem to corner those that I speak with and they go away. I get generic answers and when I ask for specifics they tend to either defer to another topic or disregard my question all together. I’m used to that and so I keep seeking as I did here with you. I’m not saying that this is what you are doing since you did extend the opportunity to check out your posts on another thread.

teachccd, if i am correct your most prominent question was what are the doctrines that became impure or “apostate”?

I will do all that i can to find the answer to this for you, as i myself would like more specific answers. *( if ParkerD does not answer first)
teachccd;:

I’m never quite sure why atheists, Protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and many other belief systems come to this forum unless it is to evangelize. But please remember that most of us here have a solid Catholic faith and you will meet resistance. I hope that I showed the love of Christ and was not too forward. I just thought that while you were here I’d ask.

In Scripture Jesus asks, “Who do you say that I am?” I’ll bet He never thought He’d get so many answers…God bless…teachccd

I came on so that i could learn more specifics about Catholic beliefs and clear up any falsities i have been told regarding what they believe and hopefully to justly represent my own beliefs and clarify them for those who ignorantly make false accusations of what we believe.