Joseph Smith and the Need for the Restoration

  • Thread starter Thread starter thecourt
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Choy claims that Joseph Smith should have burned up after seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ. Fortunately that did not happen because he was the instrument in restoring Christ’s true church to the earth, with the recognized priesthood authority to perform the ordinances of salvation.
 
Choy claims that Joseph Smith should have burned up after seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ. Fortunately that did not happen because he was the instrument in restoring Christ’s true church to the earth, with the recognized priesthood authority to perform the ordinances of salvation.
Or maybe it didn’t happen because he never saw the Father and Jesus Christ. :rolleyes:

In Joseph’s early versions of the first vision, there is no mention of the Father and the Son. In the early versions, only angels appeared and told him his sins were forgiven and he had been chosen to do a great work.

Also, in the early versions, Joseph had already decided that all the churches were wrong, rather than wondering which of all the churches was right, as was claimed in the later versions (which appeared only after his death :hmmm:).
 
Joseph’s story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon underwent some serious revisions as well.

At first, it was the ghost of a pirate with his throat slit that appeared to Joseph to tell him about the gold plates and lots of treasure that went with it.

Later, it was the angel Nephi that appeared.

Later it was the angel Moroni. (This version only appeared after Joseph’s death :hmmm:)

One could almost believe he made the whole thing up. :rolleyes:
 
hello mrparker. if i may ask, what does tcjclds stand for. is this another branch of the lds church? if so id be interested in looking it up. also if it is, what are the differences between them and the lds main branch? thank you so very much, and God bless you and yours.🙂
 
Choy claims that Joseph Smith should have burned up after seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ. Fortunately that did not happen because he was the instrument in restoring Christ’s true church to the earth, with the recognized priesthood authority to perform the ordinances of salvation.
and i still claim you are neither Mormon or Catholic. 😃
 
Joseph’s story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon underwent some serious revisions as well.

At first, it was the ghost of a pirate with his throat slit that appeared to Joseph to tell him about the gold plates and lots of treasure that went with it.

Later, it was the angel Nephi that appeared.

Later it was the angel Moroni. (This version only appeared after Joseph’s death :hmmm:)

One could almost believe he made the whole thing up. :rolleyes:
Could you cite some credible sources on this. Or else i might start claiming that the Pope gets his gold cross bling from 50-cent and expect people to believe me as well haha
 
Could you cite some credible sources on this. Or else i might start claiming that the Pope gets his gold cross bling from 50-cent and expect people to believe me as well haha
sorry mrparker, you are very very wrong. the pope did not get his bling from 50-cent! he got it from mc hammer! get it right! lol! God bless you and yours my brother.🙂
 
Teach CCD,
I had a dream just a bit ago that woke me up, so now I’m awake and I’ll take a few minutes and answer some of these questions.
That is pure speculation and could be said about anything that one wishes to change. You say that Jesus had a longer view of time and I say that He intended a continuation of what He started.
We LDS teach that His church was intended to have continued with what He started, which includes having twelve living apostles to bear witness of Him to all the world and to preserve the pure doctrines He established. But there was also evidence and an allowance for a departure by the world from His pure truths, and yet that such a departure would not result in the adversary gaining “victory”, because there would be the very restoration you disagree happened.

Christ prophesied of His own death and of what would happen soon after His death within the parable in Matthew 21:33-43. Verse 38 notes the words “let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.” That was the intent of the Jewish leaders–to kill him, and later other husbandmen would “seize on his inheritance.” Verse 43 notes “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

Daniel 7:21 and 25 prophesies of the “horn” of the beast that would “speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,…and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” The horn “prevailed against them” in the vision Daniel had.
Yes Jesus is indeed the cornerstone and your other references do not seem to be in context with the meaning of the Church and Matthew 16:18. Please explain.
The gates of hell has a specific meaning, not a general meaning. Gates can be closed and can be opened. See Revelation 1:18 and you will realize that Christ will hold the “keys of hell and of death.” Christ opens the gates of hell and lets the “prisoners” go free after they have finally bowed the knee and confessed their sins and, having suffered the pains of hell themselves, finally accept His atonement and are allowed to be rescued from Hell. This is why Christ needed the keys of hell, and why the gates of hell will not remain closed.
Right on! 👍
Hooray!
Correct but it still does not annihilate the Church to the point of total destruction and in need of total restoration. I’ve yet to see what these impure teachings are and to what extent these impure teachings and the destruction of sound doctrine went. Can you list what Christ taught from Scripture and how each and every command was violated by the Church?
I want you to understand that “each and every command” may or may not have been “violated by the Church”. Even if one had been “violated” even slightly, that would make the remaining vessel of the church an impure church and no longer the pure vessel Christ established. But many doctrines were changed, and many impurities were introduced. I already have pointed out a couple of those on this thread and the “Celestial Marriage” thread.
I’m waiting for that list.
I suppose you’re going to be able to walk away saying to yourself, “See–I’m right–he never gave me a list.” I have listed the intercession of saints and of Mary that is non-Biblical, the idea of purgatory for the righteous that is non-Biblical, the idea that humankind cannot become like Christ in their omnipotence; also, the age and mode of baptism, the reality that the Holy Ghost can be lost through unrighteousness and is never a guarantee if a person follows impure teachings, the reality that Christ taught repentance and not “doing penance” for sins, the reality that Peter was never a bishop and certainly not the “first bishop of Rome”, the reality that “popes” are listed as the supposed “head of the earthly church” while John who was an apostle and had the authority of apostleship, when those supposed leaders are listed as being the earthly “head of the church” which disagrees with Biblical doctrine.
Pure teachings could never be given to the people better than what was given by Christ Himself.
I agree completely.
 
Continuation to Teach CCD:
So then am I to conclude that the followers of Joseph Smith are more capable than the followers of Christ?
The apostle John was completely capable as a person, but the capability was not given to him nor even desired for him (because of allowing agency among humankind) that he would be able to persuade the true believers to a large enough extent that there would not be a movement against his leadership which would eventually be successful. Such a movement happened, and he saw that it would happen when he had his vision that is recorded in the Book of Revelation. He also saw that an angel would restore the pure Biblical truths later in time, in Revelation 14:6-7.
I am absolutely perplexed at why God would allow the immediate followers of Christ to fall into darkness and yet illuminate those who follow Joseph Smith when Joseph Smith was prophesying and Jesus was the Word of God and prophecy fulfilled. Is it that the LDS is an elite group that can follow truth better that the early Church?
People either follow the Holy Spirit, or they don’t. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, the comforter, to the righteous. If people became unrighteous, they would lose that gift. After losing that gift, they could drift into “darkness” even though preserving some of the good teachings and the appearance that everything was just fine. The drifting away happened after Jesus’ death and during the time the apostle John was still alive.
Now, please note that while some of my comments and questions come off fairly strong and to the point it is all done in charity and for the sake of discussion. If you feel offended by anything that I said please let me know.
Not offended at all. You were kind in your comments. Thank you.
My Catholic faith is who I am. I have spoken with Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, many Christian denominations and Jews and Muslims. I am convinced that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ and that all of Her teachings are sound and profitable. I have discussions to better understand the different perspectives in the chance that I might misrepresent your beliefs to others. I value when someone speaks to me about my Catholic faith that they have the truth about what it is that we teach and not some preconceived notion
I agree that we should all try and understand each others’ beliefs, if we have time and interest to find them out. In the meantime, we also ought to respect beliefs differing from our own, and I assure you I do respect yours.
Have a great day and God bless you…teachccd
🙂

Thanks again, and God bless you also as well as have a splendid day.
 
benidict I am a Latter Day Saint. I left Catholicism a long time ago.
 
benidict I am a Latter Day Saint. I left Catholicism a long time ago.
At least that is what you claim now. It has been pointed out on various threads that you claimed to be Catholic, and that you claimed to be protestant.

You have never explained your post where you claimed to be Catholic.

Would you care to address it here?
 
When Joseph Smith was seeking which church to join, if the true church existed at the time, there would have not been a need for a restoration. In 1820, he went into the grove of trees in upstate New York to pray asking which church he should join. I emphasize, it was not his intent to restore Christ’s church – he was seeking a answer to his place.

God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, telling him that he should not join any of the churches that existed — Protestant and Catholic churches. Eventually the restoration of the priesthood took place and the true church of Jesus Christ was organized, restoring the true church of Jesus Christ.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph S

mith not to join any church?
Jesus Christ never told Smith to join any church but Our Lord did tell him to join the Cathloic Church upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH not smith His Church
 
PaulDupre claims that due to God and Jesus Christ not being mentioned in the number of the versions of the First Vision is a useless argrument. Joseph Smith never denied the vision. He was not mad or made it up as enemies from that time to now continue to falsely state.
 
PaulDupre claims that due to God and Jesus Christ not being mentioned in the number of the versions of the First Vision is a useless argrument. Joseph Smith never denied the vision. He was not mad or made it up as enemies from that time to now continue to falsely state.
Prove it.
 
When Joseph Smith was seeking which church to join, if the true church existed at the time, there would have not been a need for a restoration. In 1820, he went into the grove of trees in upstate New York to pray asking which church he should join. I emphasize, it was not his intent to restore Christ’s church – he was seeking a answer to his place.

God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, telling him that he should not join any of the churches that existed — Protestant and Catholic churches. Eventually the restoration of the priesthood took place and the true church of Jesus Christ was organized, restoring the true church of Jesus Christ.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith not to join any church?
He must have not read how Christ promised Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Either that or he thought Christ wasnt telling Peter the truth.

Which is one of the reason we can know that the apostacy never existed.

Christ didnt lie nor did He mislead Peter.
 
RebeccaJ wants be to prove that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith.
Well, I was not in the grove of trees nonetheless Joseph never denied the vision and Holy Ghost confirmed to me that this took place leading to me in learning the truth from my church.

Catholicism lacks a number of characteristics resulting me to leave it.
 
RebeccaJ wants be to prove that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith.
Well, I was not in the grove of trees nonetheless Joseph never denied the vision and Holy Ghost confirmed to me that this took place leading to me in learning the truth from my church.

Catholicism lacks a number of characteristics resulting me to leave it.
When the times comes that you clearly see Mormonism for what it is, we will be here for you. 🙂

In the meantime, I wish you well on this part of your spiritual journey. 🙂

Don’t be surprised when it turns out to be more of stepping stones and less of the final distination of your religious identity. I’ve been there, done that

Best of luck! :love:
 
Marie5890 I know that my church is the true church of Christ and I have no reason at all to ever waste my time with Catholicism that I left years ago.
 
When Joseph Smith was seeking which church to join, if the true church existed at the time, there would have not been a need for a restoration. In 1820, he went into the grove of trees in upstate New York to pray asking which church he should join. I emphasize, it was not his intent to restore Christ’s church – he was seeking a answer to his place.

God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, telling him that he should not join any of the churches that existed — Protestant and Catholic churches. Eventually the restoration of the priesthood took place and the true church of Jesus Christ was organized, restoring the true church of Jesus Christ.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith not to join any church?
Joseph’s story is that he went into the woods when he was only fourteen years old to pray and to ask for divine guidance since he was troubled by all the religious unrest in his area. He claimed two “heavenly personages” visited him while he was praying: God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. Joseph asked them which church he ought to join. Jesus replied that he join none of them for they were all wrong; that all their doctrines were corrupt and an abomination in His eyes. (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 1968 ed. 2:19)
 
RebeccaJ wants be to prove that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith.
Well, I was not in the grove of trees nonetheless Joseph never denied the vision and Holy Ghost confirmed to me that this took place leading to me in learning the truth from my church.
The three children of Fatima never denied their visions of the Blessed Virgin, even when they were threatened with torture.

Bernadette Subirous of Lourdes never denied her visions of the Blessed Virgin, even when she was dying of bone cancer.

Sister Faustina never denied her visitations from Jesus.

Many other Catholic saints had visions and revelations from Jesus, Mary and the saints and never denied them.

So by your way of thinking, that proves that Catholicism is true, right?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top