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RebeccaJ
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It is apparent thecourt has a great amount of confusion. Mormonism can do that to people. Maybe it is best to say a prayer for him/her, and leave it at that.
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benidict
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hi rebecca. i dont think its confusion that driving this person. but causing confusion. will do as you say tho and shoot up a prayer for him/or her. and ask the Blessed Mothers intervention on this persons behalf.
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RebeccaJ
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I am not sure which. but, I have known people like this. Converts to mormonism that struggle. Always trying to make the square peg fit into a round hole. It just may be thecourt has very much believed themselves to be Catholic, even after years of being active in a Mormon church. 
After a few people I’ve seen here, I think anything is possible in this regard.
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mrparker
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i second that. I did not bring up the ‘bling’ for more than some light hearted humor, no intended equalizing of the value to the comparisonhi jharek. you are so right. just a little tongue and cheek to keep things from gettting harsh. kinda break the tension. lol! ive never really paid much attention to the popes " bling " im more interested in what he writes and speaks. but no, i would never even begin to compare His Holiness, who has apostolic authority, with a man in the northeast who made claims that cannot be substantiated by anyone or any study. However, although, i do not accept the Church of Latterday Saints and their teaching to be Christian. i can and do accept many Mormons to be Christians. God bless you and yours.
I’m glad someone shared that with me haha
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why_me
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Response
I became partial to the Methodist sect…
—Joseph Smith’s 1838 First Vision account
∗ ∗ ∗
Critical claims
The Wikipedia article “First Vision” (as of May 18, 2009) contains the assertion:
While [Joseph] almost certainly never formally joined the Methodist church, he did associate himself with the Methodists eight years after he said he had been instructed by God not to join any established denomination.
Matzko claims:
Although Joseph later wrote that his “Father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith,”—rather than emphasizing his mother’s membership—the death of Alvin and the arrival of Stockton seem to have driven both Smith and his father (who glided easily between religious skepticism and folk mysticism) farther from the Presbyterian church and its Calvinistic doctrine. It was probably during this period that Joseph “became partial to the Methodist sect,” whose opposition to Reformed doctrine was notorious.
When did Joseph become “partial to the Methodist sect?”
The following is taken from a hostile source, Orsamus Turner (Orsamus Turner, Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase (Buffalo 1849), p. 429):
And a most unpromising recipient of such a trust was this same Joseph Smith, Jr., afterwards Jo Smith." He was lounging, idle, (not to say vicious,) and possessed of less than ordinary intellect. The author’s own recollections of him are distinct. He used to come into the village of Palmyra, with little jags of wood, from his back-woods home; sometimes patronizing a village grocery too freely; sometimes finding an odd job to do about the store of Seymour Scovell; and once a week he would stroll into the office of the old Palmyra Register for his father’s paper. How impious in us young “dare devils” *
Turner then inserts a footnote which dates this to 1819-1820:
- Here the author remembers to have first seen the family, in the winter of '19, and '20, in a rude log house, with but a small spot of underbrush around it.
Turner continues:
It is also known that the Methodists held at least one camp meeting in the Palmyra area in mid-1820, prior to their purchase of the property on Vienna Road. See: First Vision/Methodist camp meetings.
Conclusion
It is entirely reasonable to conclude that Joseph was telling the truth when he said that he became “partial to the Methodist sect” in 1820. Critics who attempt to place this event later in Joseph’s life do so in order to discredit the story of the First Vision
en.fairmormon.org/First_Vision/Joseph_became_%22partial_to_the_Methodist_sect%22_in_1820
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why_me
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Criticism
Critics claim that while Joseph “almost certainly never formally joined the Methodist church, he did associate himself with the Methodists eight years after he said he had been instructed by God not to join any established denomination.”
It is claimed that the Methodists did not acquire property on Vienna Road near Palmyra until July 1821, and that is therefore “likely that Smith’s first dabble with Methodism occurred during the 1824-25 revival in Palmyra.”
Response
It commenced with the Methodists…
—Joseph Smith’s 1838 First Vision account
The Methodists’ acquisition of property on Vienna Road in July 1821
Critics wish to discount the story of the First Vision by asserting that Joseph’s claim that the “unusual excitement” about religion that “commenced with the Methodists” could not have occurred. Specifically, it is claimed that Methodist camp meetings would not have occurred until after July 1821, since the Methodists did not acquire property in the area until that time.
The Wikipedia article “First Vision” (as of May 18, 2009) contained the unsupported assertion in a footnote (the assertion that this was Joseph’s “first dabble with Methodism” has since been removed):
Bushman, 69-70. The Methodists did not acquire property on the Vienna Road until July 1821, so it is likely that Smith’s first dabble with Methodism occurred during the 1824-25 revival in Palmyra.
The Bushman reference (Rough Stone Rolling) states nothing about the Methodists’ acquisition of property, nor does it claim that Joseph’s “first dabble” with Methodism occurred during the 1824 revival. The statement was simply asserted by the editor of the wiki article. (Note: Sometime prior to September 2009, another Wikipedia editor has since replaced the unsupported assertion above with the citation by Dr. Matzko below).
Dr. Matzko makes the same assertion regarding the property on Vienna Road, however, he backs up it with a citation. According to Matzko:
Since the Methodists did not acquire property on the Vienna Road until July 1821, the camp meetings were almost certainly held after that date. [citing Wesley Walters, “A Reply to Dr. Bushman,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 4, no. 1 (Spring 1969): 99.]
It is telling that critics must rely on a citation that dates to the late 1960s.
D. Michael Quinn argues that, on the contrary, a Methodist camp meeting of 1820 can be fairly interpreted as the religious revival to which Joseph Smith refers and that Methodists typically only asked permission to use property for camp meetings rather than purchase the land.
One need not refer to Quinn, however, to demonstrate that at least one Methodist camp meeting took play near Palymra in 1820. The Palymra Register notes the occurrence of a Methodist camp meeting in the area in June 1820. From the Palmyra Register June 28, 1820:
We find in the subsequent issue that the Methodist’s objected to the paper’s implication of what happened at their camp meeting, and the Register published something of a retraction. From the Palmyra Register July 5, 1820:
“Plain Truth” is received. By this communication, as well as by the remarks of some of our neighbors who belong to the Society of Methodists, we perceive that our remarks accompanying the notice of the unhappy death of James Couser, contained in our last, have not been correctly understood. .
At some point between 1821 and 1829, Smith served as “a very passable exhorter” at Methodist camp meetings “away down in the woods, on the Vienna Road.”
It should be noted that Matzko’s assertion that this occurred “between 1821 and 1829” is not supported by the source, since Turner never specifies the timeframe during which Joseph acted as an “exhorter.” Despite the fact that Turner is a hostile source , the full quote does contain some important additional information,
But Joseph had a little ambition, and some very laudable aspirations; the mother’s intellect occasionally shone out in him feebly, especially when he used to help us to solve some portentous questions of moral or political ethics, in our juvenile debating club, which we moved down to the old red school-house on Durfee street, to get rid of the annoyance of critics that used to drop in upon us in the village; amid, subsequently, after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp-meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings.
This quote presents critics with a dilemma (as can be seen in the Wikipedia article “First Vision”). Critics wish to demonstrate the Joseph was associated with the Methodists after being instructed during the First Vision not to join any church. They attempt to do this by minimizing the mention of a “debate club” and instead imply that Joseph was a formal “exhorter” in Methodist meetings. It is noteworthy, however, that even critic Dan Vogel states that Joseph “could not have been a licensed exhorter since membership was a prerequisite.”
Conclusion
The Palmya Register clearly records that the Methodist’s were holding a camp meeting in June 1820. This contradicts the assertion that “Since the Methodists did not acquire property on the Vienna Road until July 1821, the camp meetings were almost certainly held after that date.”
If the meetings were common then they were not news—they were only reported when something unusual happened, like a death. This suggests that not only were Methodists meeting locally in 1820 (something proven by the Palmyra Register account), but such meetings were probably a frequent occurrence
en.fairmormon.org/First_Vision/Methodist_camp_meetings
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why_me
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Tundramom!
As you can see the critics have gotten it wrong. It is interesting just how many people have tried to prove mormonism wrong or that Joseph lied about the first vision etc. I don’t think that there has been another church on the face of this earth that has been persecuted as much as the lds church. And I don’t think that there has ever been another church that has generated so much time in attempting to prove the lds church false.
But…so far…no one has proven the lds church false and mormon apologists do have answers to critics accusations.
As you can see the critics have gotten it wrong. It is interesting just how many people have tried to prove mormonism wrong or that Joseph lied about the first vision etc. I don’t think that there has been another church on the face of this earth that has been persecuted as much as the lds church. And I don’t think that there has ever been another church that has generated so much time in attempting to prove the lds church false.
But…so far…no one has proven the lds church false and mormon apologists do have answers to critics accusations.
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agiosotheos
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mrparker
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I would agree with you. The Jews kinda had it rough too. IMO seems to trump all other persecutions
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why_me
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Religion can do that for people regardless of their religious faith. Just look at Saint Therese and her conflicts with atheism as a cloistered nun. She live in a very atheistic country, a country that would have tried the faith of most people. And then there was her dark night of the soul where she suffered from thoughts of atheism. If she wasn’t religious she could have avoided that confusion.
Does Catholicism or Protestantism ever cause confusion in people’s lives? I think so.
I see court as having a change of heart. But his he confused? Who knows. I would not assume anything.
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why_me
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I don’t think so. In its brief history in America, it experienced nothing but persecution during its early beginnings by mobs. And in the presses at that time, the negativity turned many non-members against the lds church. And now? With the advent of the Internet, the persecution is still is prevalent.
And on this forum? The blatant negativity and loaded vocabulary that some do, shows persecution also. And yet, the lds church is a good church that encourages its members ot live good christian lives by obeying the commandments and loving god and neighbor.
And on this forum? The blatant negativity and loaded vocabulary that some do, shows persecution also. And yet, the lds church is a good church that encourages its members ot live good christian lives by obeying the commandments and loving god and neighbor.
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Eutychus123
Guest
Christians were persecuted, and killed by the Roman Empire for years. Nero, Diocletian, and so on. I don’t think that the disagreements we are discussing here rise to that level.
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Harpazo
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Marie5890
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Why me, let me suggest you read about the early Christians.
Burned at the stake.
Beheaded.
Drawn and quartered.
roasted over fire pits.
Lets not forget the Collesium (sp?)
The list goes on and on and on…
Yes, Mormons were persecuted, esp early in their history.
But that really doesnt hold a candle for very long in the face of what the early Christians dealt with.
Its way they met in hiding in. The catacombs etc etc.
Very revealing history if you want to take the time and do the history.
Burned at the stake.
Beheaded.
Drawn and quartered.
roasted over fire pits.
Lets not forget the Collesium (sp?)
The list goes on and on and on…
Yes, Mormons were persecuted, esp early in their history.
But that really doesnt hold a candle for very long in the face of what the early Christians dealt with.
Its way they met in hiding in. The catacombs etc etc.
Very revealing history if you want to take the time and do the history.
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RebeccaJ
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Hello why me. You are saying that atheism is the clear path and St. Therese was confused by Catholicism. You understand, this is complete backwards to what it is she is telling you?
Her Faith was in God, and for God. She trusted in God to get her through her struggles. Not nice feelings, but really, truly, the knowledge that God was calling to her and did not give up on her. She struggled through it and did not give into the darkness of atheism. You have the same Hope she had, that we all have.
No whyme, I have never met a Protestant who struggles with God the way that mormons do. The struggle for mormons is more difficult. For one, it is trying to make truth out of a lie. But beyond that, mormons believe their struggles are a sin in and of themselves. And as such, they believe God withdraws from them. They believe they are left alone, to struggle alone, in darkness alone.
The truth is whyme, God is with us through our struggles. Holding us up and calling to Him. This is what you should understand from the life of St Therese Lisieux.
thecourt is in the dark fog of mormonism. The light is there for him/her to see.
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Eutychus123
Guest
Just out of curiousity, what were the churches in the Paymyra area that Joseph Smith could have joined? I’ve seen some references to Methodist and Presbyterians. Were there others?
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teachccd
Guest
Your religion affiliation states that you are “happy go lucky”. Is that a “happy go lucky” Mormon wannabe or a “happy go lucky” I’m not so sure what I am as long as it is not Catholic?..
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RebeccaJ
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whyme had a claim for a while that he was both, Catholic and Mormon. He is more of an agnostic, who sadly becomes more atheistic with every post.Your religion affiliation states that you are “happy go lucky”. Is that a “happy go lucky” Mormon wannabe or a “happy go lucky” I’m not so sure what I am as long as it is not Catholic?..
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benidict
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happy to help out with the light hearted humor mrparkeri second that. I did not bring up the ‘bling’ for more than some light hearted humor, no intended equalizing of the value to the comparison
also im no rocket scientist, but after reading why me and the courts post. i dare say they are one and the same person. and i dont think he/she has either the Mormons or Catholics best intrest at heart.lol! anyhow. love reading you and dianas post. its great to have lds members who know what they are talking about. learning alot from you two. prefer to actually listen to the other side,than take someones word for it. hopefully these forums are as edifying for you, as they are for me. God bless you and yours brother.
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benidict
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yes the mormon church encourages its members to live good christian lives by obeying the commandments. and loving God and neighbor…maybe someday youll learn how to do this too!
hopefully if i ever do have a neighbor who is mormon, its not you. dont think i could take the drama… 
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