Joseph Smith and the Need for the Restoration

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thecourt said:
Most of you have tried to show how the restoration was not needed – I know that it happened and Joseph Smith was the instrument in making it so. Trying to say my church is false based on the same old garbage I guess will never end so if you wish to learn the truth, leave Catholicism and find it outside the so called great Catholic church.
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Ah, that’s what we were looking for. Proseltyzing. I’m sure the moderators will like this.

You have yet to provide any scripture, any references of any kind for any of your outlandish and ludicrous claims.

You have been corrected by several of the current mormon posters on here.

It is obvious you are just trying to pick a fight, and most posters on here will not tolerate it.

Something tells me there are several people reporting you to the moderators at this very moment.

Just one last question. Can you do anything other than bare your testimony, and whine about the Catholic Church?
 
twopekinguys said:
Ditto!!!

Anyone want to make it a Trifecta?
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No, not me. This is a Catholic forum and I’ll leave it up to you guys! 😃

First time I reported someone, CAF banned me **by mistake **instead of the poster… 😃

BUT, they quickly released their mistake as soon as I wrote to them and gave me back my status… 😛

Man, oh man, my heart dropped so fast when that happened… 😉
 
jakasaki said:
No, not me. This is a Catholic forum and I’ll leave it up to you guys! 😃

First time I reported someone, CAF banned me **by mistake **instead of the poster… 😃

BUT, they quickly released their mistake as soon as I wrote to them and gave me back my status… 😛

Man, oh man, my heart dropped so fast when that happened… 😉
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I don’t blame you for being a little gun shy.

I would have freaked out myself.
 
twopekinguys said:
That is what I have heard also.

I have also heard that extensive birth defects is another reason.
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i thank both of you for your response. this is kinda disturbing. are there any protestant churches out there, that oppose abortion like the Catholic Church. its off topic. maybe i should start another thread on this. thank again. now im kinda bummed.😦
 
Ceil-1 said:
Martin Luther was not authorized to start another church. Joseph Smith was not authorized to start another church.

Eleven people can be fooled. The devil comes as an angel of light, as you keep reminding us. The devil will seek to separate us from the Church God created for us. This is the very thing used to discern spirits and visions. JS should have known, but probably was not well-formed in the Christian faith.

His church hijacked some ideas from the original, not unlike Islam. Your argument makes sense only from the standpoint that it is yet another false church, prophesied about, and with all the hallmarks thereof.

Good Lord, only the devil could put himself on par as a brother of Jesus. If that isn’t quintessential satan, I don’t know what is. And, the fact that the likes of you guys becoming gods of your own planets? Hello!? No offense, I am sure you are great human beings. But, only satan could come up with a cockamamy, arrogant, in-your-face-God, idea like that.

I think JS may have been well meaning. But, he was duped.
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J Smith was nothing more then a con man and was shot,I befive in a bar
 
Bill_Pick said:
J Smith was nothing more then a con man and was shot,I befive in a bar
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hi bill, actually, joseph smith was shot when a mob broke into the jail in carthage. just to be fair. it would violate joseph smiths d and c to drink alchohol. still i think he should have been tried instead of being lynched like he was. then he wouldnt be a martyr. have a blessed veterans day. 🙂
 
Bill_Pick said:
J Smith was nothing more then a con man and was shot,I befive in a bar
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Now BILL you know the truth about this. You have started enough mormon threads about the lds church to know that Joseph Smith was murdered in prison by a mob of around 150 people with their faces painted black.
 
Was thinking about another reason why the apostasy is false.

Mormon dogma says that following the death of the last apostle the “priesthood” was taken from the earth, hence making a “restoration” necessary.

But they never talk about the Holy Spirit withdrawing His presence from the earth.

The Catholic Church’s maintains that on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit decended upon the disciples and other followers. It is the Holy Spirit that has guided the Church ever since. That being so, the idea of authority being withdrawn makes no sense.

I guess it goes again to the idea of the Trinity. God, the Holy Spirit is very real.

If “priesthood authority” were withdrawn, why did God the Holy Spirit withdraw as well??

Just things I have been mulling. 🙂

Thoughts??
 
I have sometimes wondered if banning is the best response for this kind of poster. There were contradictions in his or her posts and he or she did lose it with that one post that got him or her reported. I have thought that mercy would be a better way to go instead of reporting him or her at first.

I had a hard time believing that thecourt was mormon. I thought that perhaps he or she was posing as a mormon or catholic.
 
Marie5890 said:
Was thinking about another reason why the apostasy is false.

Mormon dogma says that following the death of the last apostle the “priesthood” was taken from the earth, hence making a “restoration” necessary.

But they never talk about the Holy Spirit withdrawing His presence from the earth.

The Catholic Church’s maintains that on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit decended upon the disciples and other followers. It is the Holy Spirit that has guided the Church ever since. That being so, the idea of authority being withdrawn makes no sense.

I guess it goes again to the idea of the Trinity. God, the Holy Spirit is very real.

If “priesthood authority” were withdrawn, why did God the Holy Spirit withdraw as well??

Just things I have been mulling. 🙂

Thoughts??
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I think that we would need to look at the history of christianity and see whether or not a restoration was necessary. Was there anything in that history that could have disappointed god so much that he withdrew the priesthood? Everyone needs to come up with their own conclusions.

But before the restoration there was a reformation. Was a reformation necessary? Again, we would have to look at the history of christianity to come to a conclusion.
 
benidict said:
hi bill, actually, joseph smith was shot when a mob broke into the jail in carthage. just to be fair. it would violate joseph smiths d and c to drink alchohol. still i think he should have been tried instead of being lynched like he was. then he wouldnt be a martyr. have a blessed veterans day. 🙂
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According to the History of the Church, volume 6, Joseph Smith and the rest of the people in his cell were drinking wine at the time of the martyrdom. This is a Mormon publication. It should be remembered that the D&C does not ban the drinking of alcohol, only suggests that it not be used. It wasn’t until the 1850s that Brigham Young made the Word of Wisdom mandatory. So Joseph was not violating his revelation by drinking alcohol at the time of his death. It is well known that Mormons in Nauvoo regularly drank alcohol – I believe Joseph may have even run a tavern in Nauvoo for a short time

The Restoration is only needed if the Christian Church is in apostasy. The entire basis of an apostasy rests on the assumption that Christ’s ministers did something along the way that cost them their authority, but the reality is that even LDS accept the ordinances done by one of their own sinful priesthood holders. If an LDS Bishop ordains a priest and the LDS Bishop hasn’t repented of some serious sin, the ordinance is still valid according to the LDS. So as long as there is a chain of ordinations from the time of the apostles it would be impossible for them to claim that Catholic ordinations are invalid. That would mean the authority of Catholic priests would be valid no matter what evil some individual priest might have committed along the way.

Taking that into consideration in addition to the obvious lack of historicity of the Book of Mormon it doesn’t seem the Mormon claim of an ancient apostasy and restoration of priesthood power holds water. They can make their silly claims here, but intelligent people will disregard them. That is not to say that Mormons are stupid, but they are brainwashed by their tradition.
 
Marie5890 said:
Was thinking about another reason why the apostasy is false.

Mormon dogma says that following the death of the last apostle the “priesthood” was taken from the earth, hence making a “restoration” necessary.

But they never talk about the Holy Spirit withdrawing His presence from the earth.

The Catholic Church’s maintains that on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit decended upon the disciples and other followers. It is the Holy Spirit that has guided the Church ever since. That being so, the idea of authority being withdrawn makes no sense.

I guess it goes again to the idea of the Trinity. God, the Holy Spirit is very real.

If “priesthood authority” were withdrawn, why did God the Holy Spirit withdraw as well??

Just things I have been mulling. 🙂

Thoughts??
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I have heard it said in a similar way.

Basically that the Church went into apostacy after the death of the last apostle. I am taking that to mean that there wasn’t anyone to lead the church, so it fell into apostacy.

Using that reasoning, then the mormon church has had their own apostacy.

Several times in the early years of their church, they were without a leader.

I found this site (pro-mormon site) that shows a couple of gaps in their leadership.

moroni10.com/apostles-chronology.html

Check it out.
 
Catholic20064 said:
The Restoration is only needed if the Christian Church is in apostasy. The entire basis of an apostasy rests on the assumption that Christ’s ministers did something along the way that cost them their authority, but the reality is that even LDS accept the ordinances done by one of their own sinful priesthood holders. If an LDS Bishop ordains a priest and the LDS Bishop hasn’t repented of some serious sin, the ordinance is still valid according to the LDS. So as long as there is a chain of ordinations from the time of the apostles it would be impossible for them to claim that Catholic ordinations are invalid. That would mean the authority of Catholic priests would be valid no matter what evil some individual priest might have committed along the way.
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That is some excellent critical thinking.
You are right. By their own dogma of an ordinance being valid regardless of the worthiness of the “priesthood holder” performing said ordinance. It would still be valid. H

Hence the apostolic succession would is valid according to their own dogma.

(watching BookMarks. Patrick Madrid just talked on the very subject (why LDS’s belief in an apostasy doesnt hold weight according to the Bible)
 
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