Also, the importance of the Book of Abraham is that unlike the Book of Mormon, it explains much ofI am looking for more background, from our ex-mormon friends, about this subject. Namely, what importance does it hold in the Mormon faith? It seems to me that it proves, withouf a doubt, that Joseph Smith lied about translating it. So what effect does this have on the rest of Joseph Smith’s ability to “translate” and how damaging is this situation to the Mormon faith?
Thanks in advance.
Hi iepuras,I agree that the BOA is a huge issue. Lots of people leave over the BOA because the fraud is so very clear. It is important from a LDS cosmology perspective but other than a couple of key scriptures about the premortal existence that are discussed once every four years in Sunday School, it is completely ignored.
The Book of Mormon is heavily stressed even though it does not contain any uniquely Mormon doctrines. I know Mormons from Utah who know the Book of Mormon well but have barely cracked open the Bible. And then these young men are sent on missions to the Bible Belt and other places where the people know the Bible. They are thrown to the wolves and end up looking like idiots if they ever have the guts to Bible bash.
I remember the thought that everybody needs a body (run at being on earth) so infant death and now abortion is just all those exceptionally good souls that needed to check the box on having a body.Also, the current favorable attitude among young Mormons toward abortion comes from the belief in pre-existence. Many young Mormons believe that since spirits are already existing, just waiting for the opportunity to be born, then if a woman aborts a baby, that spirit just goes back to the “waiting room” and gets the chance to be born into another family - perhaps to even better parents.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
My thoughts exactly. I would be very curious what the rationale and thought process is concerning that. I am seriously considering joining a mormon forum to ask some of my questions, because our mormon friends here don’t seem to want to dialogue anymore.Would be great if some current members of the LDS would jump in here too, and let us know how they think.
Hi Paul,Hi iepuras,
Though the BoA is not heavily taught these days, it was when I was LDS (1975-1986). The LDS org is now trying to gradually distance itself from its more distasteful elements (like racism and misogyny). But the doctrine of pre-existence is one of the most important of LDS doctrines and influences everything else they believe.
For instance, the racism against blacks was justified by the BoA doctrine of pre-existence, and the teaching that some did not perfectly keep their “first estate”. The idea that those born into black families were somehow less “valiant” in the pre-existence than their non-black counterparts comes straight from the Book of Abraham, along with its teaching that blacks are the seed of Cain and are denied the priesthood because of it.
Also, the current favorable attitude among young Mormons toward abortion comes from the belief in pre-existence. Many young Mormons believe that since spirits are already existing, just waiting for the opportunity to be born, then if a woman aborts a baby, that spirit just goes back to the “waiting room” and gets the chance to be born into another family - perhaps to even better parents.
When I was LDS, many women (like my sister) married very bad LDS “elders” who told them they had had a revelation that when he and she were in the pre-existence, they had made a “covenant” to wed in mortal life. These gullible young girls had been taught to “follow the priesthood” (even when that priesthood holder was some creepy 22 year-old boy), so they accepted his “revelation” about their “covenant in the pre-existence” and married the creep, only to live a life of misery and betrayal. I am quite certain that this still happens, since my LDS nieces seem just as clueless and gullible as my sister was.
My point is that, even though the BoA is not stressed or taught as much as it was 30 years ago, the doctrines that Joseph Smith used the BoA to introduce to the LDS org have colored all of its teachings and culture to this day. That is the reason why this abomination disguised as scripture must be unmasked and, like a vampire, dragged into the sunlight to be destroyed.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
The best forum would be Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board. I like this forum because you can discuss doctrines and practices in depth, and they try to keep it to that. Most posters are LDS, and there are a few Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox, inactive LDS, etc.My thoughts exactly. I would be very curious what the rationale and thought process is concerning that. I am seriously considering joining a mormon forum to ask some of my questions, because our mormon friends here don’t seem to want to dialogue anymore.
LivingWaters or anyone else: What is a good mormon board for mormon apologetics? And I want a good one. I want to get their very best.
oh boy…http://forum.whatisfatmagulsfault.com/file/n2940857/th_UnsureSmiley.gifi am seriously considering joining a mormon forum to ask some of my questions, because our mormon friends here don’t seem to want to dialogue anymore.
Wow…I have spent the better part of my day reading FAIR material. They definitely do put alot of time into their apologetics. I can see how they could convince someone from birth that mormonism is true. I have a new sense of sympathy for those stuck in mormonism.This is my prediction.
On Mormon Dialogue, you’ll get the same answers you can read here:
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham
Beyond that, if you push, you’ll be informed that you’ve been given the information, nothing more to discuss. If you push more, you’ll be labeled an “anti-Mormon”. If you push more, you’ll be banned.
On Mormon Discussions, you’ll find the former LDS will agree with you, and the active LDS will refer to FAIR, again. You’ll also find Mormon “scholars” who have written copiously on “could’ve been” ideas, that are wayyyy out there on the fringes.
For the average Mormon, the answer is “I believe”, and it doesn’t really matter to them that there is evidence that conflicts with what is believed. The beginning point for a believing Mormon is Joseph Smith, who in this view, never did anything wrong. Any conflicts are “persecution”, and any historical evidence contrary to belief is “anti-Mormon”.
And it all is incredibly dopey…and the real sad part is, a TBM lines up, hook line and sinker…This is my prediction.
On Mormon Dialogue, you’ll get the same answers you can read here:
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham
Beyond that, if you push, you’ll be informed that you’ve been given the information, nothing more to discuss. If you push more, you’ll be labeled an “anti-Mormon”. If you push more, you’ll be banned.
On Mormon Discussions, you’ll find the former LDS will agree with you, and the active LDS will refer to FAIR, again. You’ll also find Mormon “scholars” who have written copiously on “could’ve been” ideas, that are wayyyy out there on the fringes.
For the average Mormon, the answer is “I believe”, and it doesn’t really matter to them that there is evidence that conflicts with what is believed. The beginning point for a believing Mormon is Joseph Smith, who in this view, never did anything wrong. Any conflicts are “persecution”, and any historical evidence contrary to belief is “anti-Mormon”.
Hello Paul,For instance, the racism against blacks was justified by the BoA doctrine of pre-existence, and the teaching that some did not perfectly keep their “first estate”. The idea that those born into black families were somehow less “valiant” in the pre-existence than their non-black counterparts comes straight from the Book of Abraham, along with its teaching that blacks are the seed of Cain and are denied the priesthood because of it.
Also, the current favorable attitude among young Mormons toward abortion comes from the belief in pre-existence. Many young Mormons believe that since spirits are already existing, just waiting for the opportunity to be born, then if a woman aborts a baby, that spirit just goes back to the “waiting room” and gets the chance to be born into another family - perhaps to even better parents.
When I was LDS, many women (like my sister) married very bad LDS “elders” who told them they had had a revelation that when he and she were in the pre-existence, they had made a “covenant” to wed in mortal life. These gullible young girls had been taught to “follow the priesthood” (even when that priesthood holder was some creepy 22 year-old boy), so they accepted his “revelation” about their “covenant in the pre-existence” and married the creep, only to live a life of misery and betrayal. I am quite certain that this still happens, since my LDS nieces seem just as clueless and gullible as my sister was.
There are other belief systems which believe in a preexistence, namely those who believe in r***********n. Some beliefs would be considered distasteful and some commendable. I would just like to point out that the above views are only the LDS view of the preexistence.Good luck!My thoughts exactly. I would be very curious what the rationale and thought process is concerning that. I am seriously considering joining a mormon forum to ask some of my questions, because our mormon friends here don’t seem to want to dialogue anymore.
LivingWaters or anyone else: What is a good mormon board for mormon apologetics? And I want a good one. I want to get their very best.