Joseph Smith--glass looker

  • Thread starter Thread starter edmondhall
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Did JS think everyone should be a “glass looker”?

“Every man who lived on the earth,” Joseph said to them, “was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make evil use of it.”
(Brigham Young’s journal, as quoted in Latter-day Millennial Star, 26:118,119)

John Taylor:
“Brigham Young in saying that He did not profess to be a prophet seer & Revelator as Joseph Smith was, was speaking of men being born Natural Prophets & seers. Many have the gift of seeing through seer stones without the Priesthood at all. He had not this gift [of using seer stones] naturally yet He was an Apostle & the President of the Church and Kingdom of God on Earth”. (Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5:550).
 
More money digging and glass looking AFTER JS had “restored” teh church:

Or[r]in P. Rockwell is an eye-witness to some powers of removing the treasures of the earth. He was with certain parties that lived near by where the plates were found that contain the records of the Book of Mormon. There were a great many treasures hid up by the Nephites. Porter was with them one night where there were treasures, and they could find them easy enough, but they could not obtain them.… He said that on this night, when they were engaged hunting for this old treasure, they dug around the end of a chest for some twenty inches. The chest was about three feet square. One man who was determined to have the contents of that chest, took his pick and struck into the lid of it, and split through into the chest. The blow took off a piece of the lid, which a certain lady kept in her possession until she died. That chest of money went into the bank. Porter describes it so [making a rumbling sound]; he says this is just as true as the heavens are. I have heard others tell the same story. I relate this because it is marvelous to you. But to those who understand these things, it is not marvelous.
(Brigham Young Journal of Discourses 19: 37-38)
 
I don’t think your ability to reason is being challenged here. I read the post as asking if your position is strictly “sola fide” thus rendering unnecessary any analytical “proof”. I think most non-Mormons are pretty confused by LDS apologists attempts to “prove” Mormonism true. If you don’t start from “I know this church true” you can’t get there from any analysis of theevidence. Thus the question “Do you just accept on faith?” is (I think) a valid one that most people can understand. If you honestly believe that none of “that stuff” (the various issues that LDS apologists deal with) matters because “flesh and blood have not revealed it you but My father which is in heaven” then that should change our discussion
Click to expand...
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you!
 
40.png
majick275:
Yet you choose to come here and in effect “look after” our “problems”.
Click to expand...
I am not here to “look after your problems;” see below.
I agree with you that if JS was a false prophet then the LDS church is false. That you believe in his divine mission is not something that anyone here is attempting to settle. I do not believe it and I have settled that. Many others here can say the same. I’m not sure then what your purpose here is.
Click to expand...
I am here for at least two reasons. I am here partly to counter the false statements and incorrect argument put forward by you and other apostates against the LDS Church; and partly because it is good fun!
Surely those who want to “find out” if JS is a true prophet would go somewhere other than Catholic Answers to find out. If you are just curious about Catholics and their beliefs then it makes perfect sense for you to come here and ask questions.
Click to expand...
I am curious about Catholics and their beliefs, of which I have a limited knowledge; and I am even more curious about what is said here about LDS and their beliefs.
What I have seen though is your persistence in promoting LDS beliefs and denying Catholic ones.
Click to expand...
I don’t recall having said anything that would be classified as “persistence in promoting LDS beliefs” or “denying Catholic ones”. I am, however, very persistent in correcting false statements made by you and other apostates against LDS beliefs. Those are two different things.
This appears to be more of a “missionary” type of activity. If that is the case then wouldn’t your time and effort be better spent on an LDS site helping “investigators”?
Click to expand...
Anyone that has any kind of religious belief, when discussing religion with others has an interest in promoting his own religious beliefs and not that of other peoples’. That is a natural outcome of any such a debate. I would not describe that as a “missionary type of activity”.
Of course maybe your more like Saul who thought his religious beliefs were “settled” and then changed his life after Jesus called him to his church.
Click to expand...
Jesus has already “called me to His Church”! I have nowhere else to go!
amgid, be like Paul. Heed the call to cease persecuting Gods church and join in it’s divine ministry.
Click to expand...
You would make a good violin player.

amgid
 
If only that were true. I tried so hard from age 10 through 14 to master the violin. alas, my lack of musical talent was so great that my parents finally sold the violin and ended our family’s acoustic misery.
 
Rev. 4: 6
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Hmm God seems to be a Glass looker.

:eek:
 
40.png
Zakuska:
Rev. 4: 6
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Hmm God seems to be a Glass looker.

:eek:
Click to expand...
Christians see this passage as describing the peace and calm surrounding the throne of God. Surely you’ve heard a calm sea with no waves described as “a sea of glass”. Because God is firmly in control of all things and His will is obeyed completely in Heaven, there is no turmoil in His presence.

The idea that the Mormon god needs a crystal ball is just further evidence of how small he really is. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
 
Before either side casts stones at the other about a “payed” clergy I think all need to reread Pauls letter again.

1 Cor 9

Paul teaches the clergy has every right to seek sustinance from the flock they pastor. However… He gives some very wise council.

He says he didn’t exercise the right of this so the flock could not come and back bight him and that he worked with his own hands for his sustinance. It also seems to me the Pauls flocks where much greater than 3000 yet he and the other Apostles still held a day job!

:cool:
 
40.png
PaulDupre:
Christians see this passage as describing the peace and calm surrounding the throne of God. Surely you’ve heard a calm sea with no waves described as “a sea of glass”. Because God is firmly in control of all things and His will is obeyed completely in Heaven, there is no turmoil in His presence.

The idea that the Mormon god needs a crystal ball is just further evidence of how small he really is. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Click to expand...
Hmmm… yet Satan caused turmoil and even war in heaven.

:rolleyes:

I see… Christ didn’t really mean what he said when he told John this;

Rev. 2: 17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden bmanna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

It was… all just… SMOKE and MIRRORS.

Gotcha!

<You didn’t see a thing>
 
goodness, all that symbolism in revelations and now you want to see a verse taken literally? please.

I completely endorse a paid clergy. It was the LDS Temple that demonized this with the sectarian minister. The missionaries also love to point to paid clergy as a sign of apostate churches.

You are applying a future part of revelations to an LDS version of the past. (satan causing turmoil in heaven) Catholics don’t believe in the pre-existence and God cast Satan out. quick and decisive.
 
Well i don’t recognize the doctrinal authority of the wikipedia. Do you?

In any case your refernced article does nothing to support a Catholic or Jewish belief in the LDS concept of pre-existence. Jesus himself declared where Judaism had strayed form true doctrine. Even your wiki though only shows the souls being CREATED when the Earth was.(it seems only LDS ever believed that God didn’t create souls)

The Christian position was not clearly defined there and if you read the beginning of the article it includes the soul being created at time of conception (or even after) as “pre-existence”.
 
That everything was created pspiritually before it was naturally on the earth.

Even Christ was brought forth by God.
 
That’s an awful big leap that I don’t agree with. Christ was not created he is eternally God.
 
40.png
edmondhall:
It speaks directly to the relation between faith and reason.
Click to expand...
Reason leads to the truth: Faith leads to whatever.
  1. The defense “good people are persecuted” is weak. Some good people are persecuted, JS was persecuted, therefore JS was good. Any freshman logic student will tell you this conclusion is invalid.
Click to expand...
True. Sadly, with the demise of liberal arts education at colleges in favor of technical training for jobs, most freshmen, or seniors et cetera, do not take any logic now.:tsktsk:
So, I know that JS making money with his seer stones doesn’t invalidate his BOM claims, but it certainly smells funny. Is this type of thing just completely ignored among LDS?
Click to expand...
Didn’t he use those stones with funny names to read the plates? :whacky:
  • Kathie :bowdown:
 
40.png
majick275:
That’s an awful big leap that I don’t agree with. Christ was not created he is eternally God.
Click to expand...
Proverbs 8
Col 1:15

For the 1st 100 years Christ was considered a created being. Brought forth by the Father.
 
40.png
Zakuska:
Proverbs 8
Col 1:15

For the 1st 100 years Christ was considered a created being. Brought forth by the Father.
Click to expand...
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be…and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”

It seems the apostle John disagrees with you. I can understand the confusion because in Colossians, Jesus is refered to as the “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”. However, we need to understand Paul’s meaning, and we must reconcile this passage with what John tells us.

While John rules out any possibility of Jesus being a created being, Paul’s words are not so clear especially when poor exegesis is involved. The Greek word here for “firstborn”(prototokos) does not refer to time or origin. It refers to position. Paul is saying that Christ is the head of, or in charge of, all creation. He is in no way implying that Christ was created first.

Also, please notice how Paul says that Christ IS the image of God. Contrast that with Adam who was created IN the image of God. BIG difference. If Christ IS the image of God, he came into existence at the exact moment that God the Father did. Which means, he has always existed.

So, we have the true meaning of prototokos(which means a position of primacy), we notice that Christ IS the image of God, and we have John saying he is there in the very beginning(uncreated). It’s as plain as the nose on your face.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top