Joseph Smith & L. Ron Hubbard: Similarities?

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I was involved in Scientology for 16 years.

I reached the level of “Clear” and went on to study some of its more “advanced” training levels.

One of the first things I had asked Scientologists, prior to deciding to become one, was whether Scientology believd in God. I was told that of course it did, and was shown many of the things that lower-level people are shown as proof of this.

I had a deep faith in God, and many of the things that Scientology introduced me to in those early days were very helpful for me at the time. So I decided to become a Scientologist and devote my life to it.

I became a staff member, working for, basically, free to help others to discover Scientology and get involved, too.

But it wasn’t until I reached the higher levels, after I had spent 10 years or so in it, having spent 10’s of thousands of dollars and fully surrounding myself in the Scientology community, that I heard L Ron Hubbard say on an advanced tape that “there was no such thing as God.”

That day, I went out to the parking lot on break, looked up at the stars, and said goodbye to God. I figured that I am a Scientologist now, and Hubbard is the one who is guiding me to Total Freedom as a Spirit, and if he says there is no God, then I’ll just have to grow up and leave that aberration behind.

I now consider this incident very differently. I believe that I was derailed, and tricked into a cult that took me away from God, while charging me LOTS of money to go toward God.

Based on L Ron Hubbard’s study and application of Crowley’s ideas, he believed that he was Lucifer, the “Light-Bringer”. The very first version of OT 8, Truth Revealed (The highest existing step on the Bridge to Total Freedom) “revealed” that to its participants. Many left the Church after doing that level, and so they deleted that part.

It makes sense to me that L Ron Hubbard considered himself Lucifer, the Light Bringer. Just as Lucifer did, Hubbard rejected God, and railed against Him, based on ego and vanity.

L Ron Hubbard ended up with a 100 million dollar estate.

He also ended up dying alone, surrounded by his most greedy and fanatical staff, having disconnected from almost all of his family, insane, and on psych drugs.

Very few Scientologists can confront the information necessary to free them from this destructive cult. I, myself was told many times while I was in, all that I needed to know to see the truth of this.

But I looked away.

That is the nature of Hubbard’s “work”.

It teaches you to look away.

Whether there are similarities between L Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith is an interesting topic for debate.

I see a few, although I know much more about L Ron Hubbard than I do about Joseph Smith.
 
“It is the many verified (through court cases, etc) sources which establish a clear pattern of purposeful misinformation and secrecy, dating back to the very founding of L Ron Hubbard’s venture.”
If that is your opinion, then so be it. I happen to think it’s based on a lot of misinformation, which itself can show up in a lot of places - even in court documents.

My only purpose here was to correct the misinformation I saw being bandied about in this forum. I believe I have done that. It forever remains up to each individual reader to evaluate my comments as he sees fit.
 
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majick275:
Greta van susteren, Kelly Preston, Kirstie Alley, Jason Lee, Katie Holmes (newly), Jerry seinfeld (formerly), Chick Corea,Lindsey Bartleson, It goes on… here is the list from wiki (like all wiki articles read with a grain of salt):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists
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Chick Corea is my second cousin… He is a scientologist and a crazy, crazy man. (From what I hear from my grandpa anyway) 😉
 
“Sorry to disappoint you L. Ron fans.”
You assume that we are Scientologists because we follow Hubbard, much like Christians follow Christ or Muslims follow Mohammed. This isn’t so. We do have a lot of respect for the man, and many of us may consider him a great man, but we do know that he was just a man.

We are Scientologists because we have learned some piece of the technology, we have applied it, and we have observed an improvement in conditions. L. Ron Hubbard could have been the most depraved psychopath since Caligula - so long as his discoveries are useful in making things better, it wouldn’t matter. Just as Einstein’s character doesn’t influence the physicist’s study of the laws of motion, neither does Hubbard’s character affect the study of the laws of life.

Oh, and I noticed the quote about Crowley wasn’t long enough to really understand what Hubbard was talking about. Knowing the fear that a Christian might feel upon hearing the name Crowley, this incomplete audio file is nothing short of fear mongering.

Unfortunately, this is nothing knew where critics of Scientology are concerned. And such incomplete information presented grossly out of context is all you find at those critical sites. Their goal is not to enlighten, not to foster understanding, but solely to frighten and scare.

That’s just not a nice thing to do in polite society. Neither is furthering such ignoble goals by making it easy for folks to fall prey to such misinformation.
 
Theta said:
* Oh, and I noticed the quote about Crowley wasn’t long enough to really understand what Hubbard was talking about. Knowing the fear that a Christian might feel upon hearing the name Crowley, this incomplete audio file is nothing short of fear mongering.

Unfortunately, this is nothing knew where critics of Scientology are concerned. And such incomplete information presented grossly out of context is all you find at those critical sites. Their goal is not to enlighten, not to foster understanding, but solely to frighten and scare. *

Well, you are right that there is not enough information to know what Hubbard was talking about with regard to his relationship with Crowley in that quote. But that’s because Hubbard hid his relitionship with Crowley, and Jack Parsons, and the O.T.O, from Scientologists.

For more information about this relationship, you should read Russell Miller’s “Bare-Faced Messiah”. There is a whole chapter devoted to Hubbard’s inolvement in the OTO cult, his stay at Jack Parson’s Mansion in Pasadena, CA, the beliefs they held, the rituals they performed, etc.

I would not call presenting only that quote “fear mongering” any more than I would call your explanation an attempt at hiding Hubbard’s roots in order to present Scientology in a more favorable light to people.

After all, Hubbard did it, too.

No. It’s just a matter of allowing the data to be exposed to the light of day, whether on the internet, or even in one’s own mind.
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He didn’t hide it very well if he’s openily talking about it, did he. That kind of makes any claim that we’re hiding something rather moot, don’t you think?

In the end, Hubbard’s relationship with Crowley is being presented to an audience which is expected to react with fear at the mention of his name. There is no attempt at understanding or enlightenment, only creating fear. That’s fear mongering.

And it’s not a nice thing to do. Not only does it create unnecessary upset for the audience, but it also creates misunderstanding of the Scientology religion.
 
Don’t you think Hubbard’s relationship with Crowley, and Scientology’s roots in the OTO should be discussed?

You should be able to discuss it, I think, without creating fear.

So go ahead.

What, exactly was Hubbard’s relationship to Crowley, Jack Parsons and the OTO?

What do we need to know that makes it seem less terrifying and less duplicitous than it sounds?
 
And by the way, I do own and have read the book mentioned. Like all sources critical of Scientology, it represents not an effort to “allow the data to be exposed to the light of day”, but only an effort to turn people away from a religion which is poorly understood by the critic.
 
“Don’t you think Hubbard’s relationship with Crowley, and Scientology’s roots in the OTO should be discussed?”
Towards what end? The only one I can think of is to create fear and upset among Christians.

That’s not a very useful purpuse.
 
The one obvious similarity is that they are both false prophets who are actively drawing people away from Gods’ Church and therefore away from God.

An interesting side note on Scientology and it’s influence on the Schiavo case:

The HQ of their “church” is in that county. Most of the major players from Michael’s lawyer to the Sheriff who illegally blocked the federal agents who intended to save Terry, to the ME who did the autopsy are all Scientologists and according to Hubbard’s own son his father’s religion teaches that those who can no longer care for themselves are a “cancer on society that needs to be eliminated”. I will admit that I do not know a lot about Scientology TEXT DELETED
 
"The one obvious similarity is that they are both false prophets who are actively drawing people away from Gods’ Church and therefore away from God.
See, that’s more misinformation. Hubbard isn’t a prophet. Never claimed to be. No one thinks he is. He was just a man who happened to discover some things about life. Things anyone can use to make their life better.

And there are Scientologists who claim to feel coser to God as a reslut of Scientology. They claim they’re better Christians as a result of the help Scientology has provided them.

As for Joseph Smith being a “false prophet”, I can’t comment.
 
“…according to Hubbard’s own son his father’s religion teaches that those who can no longer care for themselves are a “cancer on society that needs to be eliminated”.”
This is most definitely NOT the attitude you find common among Scientologists, and I find even the suggestion offensive.
 
lets talk about church leaders connected with evil men shall we. can your pope ever enter the usa as a war criminal who activly surported the mass murder of millions of Gods chosen people. How dare you judge others look at yourselves TEXT DELETED.
or has he repented of his sins oh wait a moment you cannot repent of murder of innocents. he did not need to hold the poison gas to be guilty he supported them and thus he will get their reward.
 
Theta said:
*"…according to Hubbard’s own son his father’s religion teaches that those who can no longer care for themselves are a “cancer on society that needs to be eliminated”."*This is most definitely NOT the attitude you find common among Scientologists, and I find even the suggestion offensive.
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I am sure it is not, I just quoted what his son has said in an interview. Hi son me have issues with his dad and be making this up for all I know but he seemed sincere. You can find the text of the interview here:

rickross.com/reference/scientology/scien240.html

Be warned that you will not like what he says if you are a Scientologist.
 
paul barlow:
lets talk about church leaders connected with evil men shall we. can your pope ever enter the usa as a war criminal who activly surported the mass murder of millions of Gods chosen people. How dare you judge others look at yourselves TEXT DELETED.
or has he repented of his sins oh wait a moment you cannot repent of murder of innocents. he did not need to hold the poison gas to be guilty he supported them and thus he will get their reward.
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You must be thinking of Pope Pius XII during WW II, right? If so, you are incorrect. Pope Pius is credited with saving hundred of thousands of Jews during WW II.
 
paul barlow:
lets talk about church leaders connected with evil men shall we. can your pope ever enter the usa as a war criminal who activly surported the mass murder of millions of Gods chosen people. How dare you judge others look at yourselves TEXT DELETED.
or has he repented of his sins oh wait a moment you cannot repent of murder of innocents. he did not need to hold the poison gas to be guilty he supported them and thus he will get their reward.
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I am sorry but you have no clue what you are talking about. The fact that the church stayed active in Nazi Germany does not mean they supported anything in any way and to make such an assertion shows you are sadly mis-informed. The Church actively helped Jews escape Europe and many of it’s leaders were persecuted for their opposition to Hitler. You really need to educate yourself before making long-discredited claims like that. Just do some research on how Israel feels about the situation. It would also be a little tough for Pius XII to enter the country since he died in 1958.
 
paul barlow:
lets talk about church leaders connected with evil men shall we. can your pope ever enter the usa as a war criminal who activly surported the mass murder of millions of Gods chosen people. How dare you judge others look at yourselves TEXT DELETED.
or has he repented of his sins oh wait a moment you cannot repent of murder of innocents. he did not need to hold the poison gas to be guilty he supported them and thus he will get their reward.
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Here is an interesting book written by Rabbi David G. Dalin: “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis.” I saw it last night when I was at Barnes & Noble. Also, here is what Albert Einstein had to say about the Catholic Church and Pope Pius XII (from Time, December 23, 1940): "Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the case of truth; but no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom. But they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess, that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”
 
Theta said:
*"…the faith exhibited by members in LDS and Scientology are both adamantly against and unresponsive to other religious and theological perspectives…"*This is patently false. I don’t think you will find a religion more open to other religious beliefs than Scientology. In fact, many Scientologists also belong to another faith. The head of our local Church is also Christian. We had one staff mamber who was also a practicing Jew and another who was raised Quaker. While not all Scientologists also practice another faith, it is not that uncommon. Below is a post from the Scientology FAQ.

"Scientology respects all religions. It shares with other religions the dreams of peace and salvation.

The Church’s Creed states that “all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance.”

Scientology ministers-in-training study all the major religions of the world to better understand how they fit into the larger religious community."
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Its readily apparent to me, that if one is Catholic, Jew or Protestant and still is in need of additional self help in the way of the church of Scientology that that person is not very well versed in his or her own religion. If one cannot find all that is necessary in their own religion such as self awareness and fullfillment then I guess it would be time to move on to another religion.
 
paul barlow:
lets talk about church leaders connected with evil men shall we. can your pope ever enter the usa as a war criminal who activly surported the mass murder of millions of Gods chosen people
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Are you attributing these charges to Pope Benedict XVI? If so, might I suggest that you have gone farther than even the survivors of the Holocaust have done? No Jewish authority of any standing has charged Benedict with supporting the mass murder of Jews during WWII.
. . . .or has he repented of his sins oh wait a moment you cannot repent of murder of innocents.QUOTE]

You can’t? Really?

Luke 23: 33-34

33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Or do I misremember what happened to one Saul of Tarsus, someone who truly was guilty of innocent blood? See particularly Acts 22: 1-21 if this episode escapes your own memory.
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