Joseph Smith, Martyr?

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Chris-Wa1 said:
You’ve combined two unrelated concepts to make Joseph into something he was not.

I know you think you are being clever by using quotes from the Catechism to back up your arguments, but what you quoted has nothing to do with the Church’s concept of martyrs. You can’t twist the Catechism of the Catholic Church by taking a statement about one concept and applying it to another concept in order to mean something different. The people who wrote it know what it means, and they would most certainly take issue with your manipulation of its content.
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It’s not me, friend. I was just passing on some wisdom from the Aggie catholic blog showing there’s no contradiction between martyrdom and self-defense in the Catholic faith.

I hope this helps…
 
Chris-Wa1 said:
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ZMystiCat:
From what I understand, he would fit the absolutely most literal definition of the word “martyr”:
a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
(source)
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He was killed for committing crimes which angered the local population, the most significant of which was his burning down of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press in retribution for its printing of material exposing Joseph’s fraud.
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The City Council of Nauvoo declared the Nauvoo Expositor a public nuisance and ordered it destroyed. The destruction was carried out by the town marshall. Localities had broader powers then than they do today.
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gazelam said:
It’s not me, friend. I was just passing on some wisdom from the Aggie catholic blog showing there’s no contradiction between martyrdom and self-defense in the Catholic faith.
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My question again: Why do YOU believe JS is a martyr?

It seems you want to use Catholic teaching to show us we are wrong about the LDS, but why not use your own argument to show you are correct?
 
gazelam said:
The City Council of Nauvoo declared the Nauvoo Expositor a public nuisance and ordered it destroyed. The destruction was carried out by the town marshall. Localities had broader powers then than they do today.
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For the rest of the story: Joseph Smith and the city council declared it a nuisance. Smith wanted it destroyed because it was not kind to him in its one publication.

The surrendered part is a bit misleading also. Smith initially ran, trying to elude law enforcement. He had to be talked into returning to Nauvoo to face the charges.
In response to the newspaper’s publication, Smith and the Nauvoo City Council declared the paper a public nuisance and ordered the press destroyed. The town marshal carried out the order during the evening of June 10.

The destruction of the press led to charges of riot against Smith and other members of the Council. After Smith surrendered on the charges, he was also charged with treason against Illinois.
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Horton said:
For the rest of the story: Joseph Smith and the city council declared it a nuisance. Smith wanted it destroyed because it was not kind to him in its one publication.
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Not sure what “rest of the story” you are referring to. Joseph Smith, as mayor of Nauvoo, was already on the Nauvoo City Council. The point is that the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was not brought about by the edict of Joseph Smith alone, but by a democratically elected body accountable to the people of Nauvoo.

I hope this helps…
 
Just so y’all know, I now have “Praise to the Man” stuck in my head and can’t get rid of it.

I hate all of you . . . 🤣
 
gazelam said:
The City Council of Nauvoo declared the Nauvoo Expositor a public nuisance and ordered it destroyed. The destruction was carried out by the town marshall. Localities had broader powers then than they do today.
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It appears in this comment you want others to believe Smith had nothing to do with the destruction of the newspaper printing press. The reality is he orchestrated the whole thing. Apparently all the people of Nauvoo were a bit tired of the tyranny of Joseph Smith and decided to hold him accountable.
 
Chris-Wa1 said:
He was killed for committing crimes which angered the local population, the most significant of which was his burning down of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press in retribution for its printing of material exposing Joseph’s fraud.
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I’m aware of the Nauvoo Expositor, but as far as I’m aware, it was more of an act people used to justify acting on their already anti-Mormon sentiments. For that reason, I think a case can be made that Joseph Smith at least fits the dictionary definition of a martyr. But…
Chris-Wa1 said:
And getting in a gunfight would certainly not fit anyone’s definition of martyrdom.
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Like I said:
ZMystiCat said:
The way he fought back when going out was not exactly in line with the spirit of martyrdom, though. It certainly doesn’t resemble the example set by men like Jesus, Paul, and Peter.
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Or, in other words, regardless of the dictionary definition, his martyrdom doesn’t really offer much reason to praise him. The reason we praise the martyrs we do is because they peacefully refused to denounce Christ, even to the point of death, reflecting His own peaceful resolve in the face of death. We don’t praise them because they fit some dictionary definition of martyr.
 
gazelam said:
The City Council of Nauvoo declared the Nauvoo Expositor a public nuisance and ordered it destroyed. The destruction was carried out by the town marshall. Localities had broader powers then than they do today
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Oh please give me a break. That is such a pathetically lame excuse, and also complete nonsense. Stop making excuses for the man already. You cannot possibly believe that drivel.
 
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gazelam said:
The point is that the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was not brought about by the edict of Joseph Smith alone, but by a democratically elected body accountable to the people of Nauvoo.

I hope this helps…
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No it doesn’t, not at all. Don’t give us this nonsense about “a democratically elected body…” Joseph Smith was running a theocracy. It he wanted something done, it got done. If he didn’t want something done, it didn’t happen. HE wanted that printing press gone. HE was responsible.
You’re not fooling anybody.
 
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I don’t disagree with anything you said; however, many converted before 2001 and had a conditional baptism. This is why I say the discussions with Catholic priests as to why somebody is being baptized may have been different depending on when somebody converted.

Conditional baptisms are usually private affairs too. Again, I would stress this is subject best left up to a convert and a priest. I just don’t think an internet forum is the right place for such a discussion.
 
jack63 said:
Again, I would stress this is subject best left up to a convert and a priest.
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I’m not sure what you mean by “this subject.” It seems to have quickly split into two questions.
  1. Was Joseph Smith a Christian?
  2. Are Mormons Christian?
    If you believe you have to receive a Christian baptism to be Christian, then the answer to 1) is maybe and 2) is no.
 
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And none of these subjects were the point of the thread. FYI, I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a Christian Martyr. By the strict definition of Martyr, he may have been Martyr for a set of beliefs I don’t believe to be Christian. He was a divisive political leader in Missouri for sure.

Whether Joseph Smith was a Christian? I don’t know. Was he baptized in another Christian faith? Beats me. God only knows on these questions. It opens up a huge can of worms.

Was Joseph Smith a believer in Polytheism as the Mormons describe it? This is in fact a massive can of worms. Some would claim the non-Trinitarian believes came after he died, and they were an invention of Brigham Young. This could take several threads. I’m not defending Joseph Smith by the way. I agree he was a Philanderer.

Are all churches that sprang from Joseph Smith in Missouri Christian. I don’t know. The are absurdly many of these. Some would consider themselves Trinitarian and would completely reject the LDS idea of Polytheism. The blanket statement that Joseph Smith is not Christian is not helpful in this context.

 
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Y’all, I’m gonna have to agree with the deacon. They’re not Christian at all. Without a valid baptism, they are separate from the body of Christ.
 
This thread can be summed up as follows:

Martyrs for me, but not for thee.
 
Indeed. And the more I think about it, the less it matters to me whether adherents of another Christian denomination believe Joseph was a martyr or not.

I occasionally read through Fox’s book of Martyrs. It contains examples of martyrs taken while trying to escape. Or defending themselves with weapons. Sometimes they’re not martyred because they profess Christ, but for other reasons. Some of them recant during torture, but are included in the book anyway. Agatha was killed by the pretext that she was a Christian, but in reality because she refused the sexual advances of the Governor of Sicily. Lots of women martyrs who were killed because of such things, and Christian men martyred because they sought to protect women.

And as I read y’all pointing out Joseph had destroyed a printing press, here’s my favorite - the guy who was martyred because he destroyed a published edict:

"Diocletian and Galerius, who, not contented with burning the books, had the church levelled with the ground. This was followed by a severe edict, commanding the destruction of all other Christian churches and books; and an order soon succeeded, to render Christians of all denomination outlaws.

The publication of this edict occasioned an immediate martyrdom, for a bold Christian not only tore it down from the place to which it was affixed, but execrated the name of the emperor for his injustice. A provocation like this was sufficient to call down pagan vengeance upon his head; he was accordingly seized, severely tortured, and then burned alive."

Fox’s book of Martyr’s have an entire chapter devoted to those killed and martyred by the Church of Rome. It’s an interesting read. http://kotisatama.net/files/kotisatama/Tekstit_ja_kirjat/foxe.pdf
 
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