Joseph Smith's Bank

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LOL the con artist to beat all of them. :eek: Hoffmann was just an amateur.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Well she also thought atheists who had a positive view of Jesus Christ were Christians.

:doh2:

I don’t think she has been reincarnated. She went on her mission to England, not Guatemala.
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I missed that one, but somehow it doesn’t surprise me in the least.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Every Mormon I know supports the death penalty. I don’t think they know, or realize, that Catholic social teaching only allows the death penalty in cases where a person cannot be kept safely separate from society. Such as a life sentence. Here in UT, every time a terrible crime is committed the comments section in the newspapers are rife with all sorts of violence that people would like to inflict on the accused, including mutilations, tortures and death. Mormons have vengeance in their hearts. They believe Smith was justified in his shooting of others, Brigham Young continued to teach for decades afterward that vengeance against those responsible for Smith’s death (all of Missouri) was God’s will.
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Not only was revenge of the so called prophet Joseph encouraged, it was part of the oaths that people at that time took each time they attended the holy temple. I think that it was well into the last century before the oath to avenge Joe Smiths death was removed from the temple ceremony.
 
I think that it was well into the last century before the oath to avenge Joe Smiths death was removed from the temple ceremony.
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And that bitterness still remains in multi-generation LDS families. Read backwards on this thread for more info that relates to me, and many others. 😦
 
garyo49 said:
Not only was revenge of the so called prophet Joseph encouraged, it was part of the oaths that people at that time took each time they attended the holy temple. I think that it was well into the last century before the oath to avenge Joe Smiths death was removed from the temple ceremony.
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From wikipedia article “Oath of vengeance”:
The oath of vengeance was an addition made to the Nauvoo Endowment under the direction of Brigham Young by 1845 in the Nauvoo Temple, soon after the 1844 death of Joseph Smith, Jr…[1] Participants agreed to be bound by the following oath, or something substantially similar:
“You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.”
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…
Beginning in 1919, LDS Church president Heber J. Grant appointed a committee charged with revising the ceremony, which was done under the direction of Apostle George F. Richards from 1921 to 1927. Richards revised the ceremony to eliminate the oath of vengeance.
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Thanks, Paul, for supplying that documentation. So the exact date was 1927?
 
Jerusha said:
And that bitterness still remains in multi-generation LDS families. Read backwards on this thread for more info that relates to me, and many others. 😦
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I’m not bitter. But I am sad at some of the comments on this thread. In particular with the fact that a good man was shot down and instead of outrage at those who killed him (who were never brought to justice) it is channeled at the man who was killed and the church he re-established.
 
Janderich said:
I’m not bitter. But I am sad at some of the comments on this thread. In particular with the fact that a good man was shot down and instead of outrage at those who killed him (who were never brought to justice) it is channeled at the man who was killed and the church he re-established.
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I do not regard Joseph Smith like you regard him. However, that was 170 years ago, and what was done-- was done, and regrettable. Get over it. 🤷 Don’t channel that hatred towards those whose ancestors might have been involved. :rolleyes: Or the state or country where it happened. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Janderich said:
I’m not bitter. But I am sad at some of the comments on this thread. In particular with the fact that a good man was shot down and instead of outrage at those who killed him (who were never brought to justice) it is channeled at the man who was killed and the church he re-established.
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Perhaps because he was not an innocent man. He was a crook and con man who ran from three states and tried to run from another to avoid the law. He then, as a suspected criminal in jail, illegally had a gun and fired willy nilly down stairs before trying, again, to run, leaving his friends behind. And he did not RE establish anything. He established a huge con.
 
👍👍
Jerusha said:
I do not regard Joseph Smith like you regard him. However, that was 170 years ago, and what was done-- was done, and regrettable. Get over it. 🤷 Don’t channel that hatred towards those whose ancestors might have been involved. :rolleyes: Or the state or country where it happened. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Many mormons have their blinders on when it comes to JS, and his entire history.
 
Calgar said:
Nope.

But I know of a prophet of God who was a murderer.
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It is true, I don’t know if we are talking or thinking about the same person but I can say definetely that Moses was a murderer (since he killed an egiptian) and David organized a murder not by first hand of an innocent guy.

But if you say this mormon exalt themselves putting J.S. on the same level.
Their caracteristics is to find a similar thematic to translated it to JS.
The point is that Moses commited didn’t commit the crime after his mission was clear to him. The contact with God changed him profundely. Has changed Paul (not a prophet but an apostol).

JS was committing small crimes before his p’ersonal"revelation". After this "revelation he changed not in better but in worse. His crime were much bigger. He commited polighamy, he frauded people with a bank that supposely had to destroy all the other bank, he took an handgun in prison and bringing it inside broke an additional law. And insted of accepting his death as a lamb to the butcher (as he stated ) he tried to defend himself like a common man, killing at least one person.
In the name of what? Of God.

Generally you see people changing after a true revelation. They become extremely humble and no material world is interesting for them.
The same cannot be said for JS.

Lonfg time ago I thought JS fooled people. Now I think people tha taccept to be fooled by JS aare as much responsable of this fooling because we can say everything but JS art of fooling was not so subtle. It is ridiculous. It is not a question of faith.

Once to my I asked to my wife (ex mormon): if Jesus talk to you and say after your death: “why you had to believe in JS?” For which reason? Was not enough what my apostols said about me? Where your need to have more came from? "

She had some difficulty in answering clearly.
But anyway mormons don’t answer clearly. Their answer are clear only to them.
 
I love it when people compare Joseph Smith in the 1830s to people in the Bible thousands of years ago. They cannot seem to understand that you cannot compare. The times and customs were different. The laws were different.

If that is best you got, you have already lost the debate.

Be blessed
 
Just a little thought experiment here:

For all of the non-Mormons participating, would this thread bring you closer to Christ and his Church if you were in the shoes of the Mormon contributors? I fully agree with all of the ideas expressed in this thread that I saw, but I’m not sure this is the way to win souls. I don’t mean to step on any toes, because I know we’re all here because of our faith in the authentic Jesus Christ and his holy Church. I’m just a fellow brother in Christ trying to make sure that we are keeping the goal of winning souls in mind, and not letting frustration, etc, distract us from doing our best to achieve that goal.

By the way, I can understand (at least to some degree) the frustration here. I haven’t seen sufficient objective proof to believe that Joseph Smith lived up to the claim of being a prophet, but we must win others over with love, not arguments. I’ll get off my undeserved soap box now. God bless you all.
 
ChrisB103 said:
Just a little thought experiment here:

For all of the non-Mormons participating, would this thread bring you closer to Christ and his Church if you were in the shoes of the Mormon contributors? I fully agree with all of the ideas expressed in this thread that I saw, but I’m not sure this is the way to win souls. I don’t mean to step on any toes, because I know we’re all here because of our faith in the authentic Jesus Christ and his holy Church. I’m just a fellow brother in Christ trying to make sure that we are keeping the goal of winning souls in mind, and not letting frustration, etc, distract us from doing our best to achieve that goal.

By the way, I can understand (at least to some degree) the frustration here. I haven’t seen sufficient objective proof to believe that Joseph Smith lived up to the claim of being a prophet, but we must win others over with love, not arguments. I’ll get off my undeserved soap box now. God bless you all.
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If you do things with love with a back intention I don’t know if would be really love. I don’t think our answers here are to convert mormon to christianity but to point out loudly the differences, the hided facts, their guided misinformation, and the confusion some of them unconsciously spread.

**I love mormons as people. I just don’t love what they believe. **There is an extremely big difference. Sometimes is hard to do but it is true. But sometimes is hard to love your children when you are tired and they get you completely crazy! I get mad at them? Yes! As I get mad sometimes with people that I love.
If you love people for what they believe your love would end if their believe changes. It is what happened to my wife when she converted to Christianity after being a mormon for all her life. She lost all her friends, her family, very from very close now just have contacts that I would define of courtesy and diplomacy.
 
truthsave said:
For the ones who didn’t know. This is from mormon’s prophet Joseph Smith.

**Topics surrounding the Kirtland Bank created by Joseph Smith. **

The Kirtland Bank was created in the State of Ohio by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. Joseph was the Cashier and Sidney was the President. Unable to obtain a Banking Charter, Joseph and Sidney created an “Anti-Bank” Bank. Depositors were lured in because Joseph Smith told his followers that as a Prophet of God, the Bank would never fail.

Joseph Smith’s delusions left them empty-handed and the bank declared bankruptcy. Many faithful Mormons lost their life savings and investments - and their faith. Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon fled Kirtland under the cover of darkness in January of 1838 to escape bank depositors who were given worthless bank notes in exchange for gold and silver deposits.

Warren Parrish, who had been an officer in the bank and had apostatized from the Church, made this statement: “I have listened to him * with feelings of no ordinary kind, when he declared that the AUDIBLE VOICE OF GOD, INSTRUCTED HIM TO ESTABLISH A BANKING-ANTI BANKING INSTITUTION, who like Aaron’s rod SHALL SWALLOW UP ALL OTHER BANKS (the Bank of Monroe excepted,) and grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins.” (Painesville Republican, February 22, 1838, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, page 297)

*Wilford Woodruff, who remained true to the Church and became the fourth President, confirmed the fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation concerning the bank. Under the date of January 6, 1837, he recorded the following in his journal: “I also herd [sic] President Joseph Smith, jr., declare in the presence of F. Williams, D. Whitmer, S. Smith, W. Parrish, and others in the Deposit office that HE HAD RECEIVED THAT MORNING THE WORD OF THE LORD UPON THE SUBJECT OF THE KIRTLAND SAFETY SOCIETY. He was alone in a room by himself and he had not only [heard] the voice of the Spirit upon the Subject but even an AUDIBLE VOICE. He did not tell us at that time what the Lord said upon the subject but remarked that if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well.” **

How it ended up?

Why don’t you get at the actual facts?

en.fairmormon.org/Kirtland_Safety_Society
Half of the original twelve apostles, and more than half of the total church membership, left the church because of the Kirtland failure.
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LDSfaqs said:
Why don’t you get at the actual facts?

en.fairmormon.org/Kirtland_Safety_Society

And we will get the facts correct from a Mormon Apologetic site? lol…

That is simply totally false. The only time any sort of mass people left the Church was after Joseph’s death, MANY YEARS LATER. Further, half the Church did not leave it.

Wrong. There was a LOT who left after Joseph scammed the out of money in the bank scandal and then fled the authorities.

Yes Joseph fled for fear of his life, leaving creditors behind. However, even as late as 1843, he continued to work to settle his Kirtland debts, even though he was far away in Nauvoo and effectively beyond the reach of his creditors. Also in a 23 June 1874 speech, Brigham Young indicated that “some of his [Joseph’s] debts had to be settled afterwards; and I am thankful to say that they were settled up.”

BY saying it does not make it true. Show us proof from the creditors…you can’t
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