Joseph Smith's changing doctrine of deity

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OK. You are certainly entitled to your own interpretation. I obviously don’t agree with it, particularly given the discourse occurring when Jesus gives Simon the name “Peter”. Jesus also frequently refers to Peter as “Simon, son of John”, which would be (I think) enough of a distinction for communicating. But I certainly appreciate you explaining the LDS view which is what I asked for.

Yes. Jesus is God and He is the Ultimate Holder of all keys.

The first quote and link was the more important of the two that I gave you. I thought it did a very good job of explaining the Scripture. I still don’t know what you are trying to say or allude to, so I don’t think any more of my comments will help you. 🤷

Please read Arandur’s Post #243. S/he also gives a good explanation so maybe that will help you.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I am actually curious as to how you interpret John 20:21-23. For me, it has a very clear meaning, but obviously you don’t agree or you would be Catholic. 😉 So I would be interested to know how you/LDS view that Scripture.

You too. 🙂
Jay53,
I did indeed read Arandur’s post, and appreciated the additional insight, but don’t agree with the particular sense of the specific “key of David” being one that is passed on to a man, since that is contradicted by Revelation 3:7 and is clearly always Christ as depicted in Isaiah 22:21-23 and in John’s teaching from his vision about the opening of the gates of death and hell by Christ.

I think the continuation of this conversation is off topic for this thread, for which I am partly to blame so rather than continue here, I will start a new thread to answer your other questions above.

Peace and good evening or morning to you, as the case may be.
 
As far as the name change of Peter, this was very special. Look at the words in context, direct in their meaning: “And so I say to you, YOU ARE ROCK, and ON THIS ROCK, I WILL BUILD MY Church.”
I found this interesting article that goes deeper in the meaning of this scripture:

"The word Petra for rock is used 16 times in the New Testament. 11 times of a massive cliff rock, a bedrock, 5 times symbolically of Christ himself. (EX.1 Cor.10:4 The rock in the wilderness is Christ)

The name Peter (Petros) a masculine noun means small rock or stone. In Mt. 16:18 is the first time it is used saying “I will build my church”, a future event when the Spirit is sent and the body of Christ is formed. Jesus said “ I say unto you ,you are Peter (Petros) and upon this Rock (Petra feminine noun meaning a massive rock) I will build my church.” First we see who the rock is, second we see it is Jesus building the church not Peter. it is Jesus who states I will build my church, he protects it and gives increase to it. When we think about a foundation for a building it needs to be reliable, this comes through testing. There is only one who the Bible speaks as the rock that cannot be moved, that is Christ. All one has to do is look at Peter and we find he was moved numerous times showing he cannot be the foundation of the Church. The church is built upon the rock, Christ.

If Jesus were actually referring to Peter as the rock, Jesus would not have used the MASCULINE word petros for the rock. Jesus instead used a different Greek word for “this rock” a FEMININE word petra indicating something other than Peter. Since the Holy Spirit guided the apostles writings into all truth we should expect the precise words used to convey the meaning (John 14:26; 16:13). Arguments such as they spoke in Aramaic don’t hold up either. Maybe they did speak this language but it was written in the Greek and therefore the distinction. The ones that were there and heard what Jesus said wrote it in Greek."

Here it the complete article…

letusreason.org/RC6.htm
 
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Book of Mormon is correct in saying many times that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE. Which is correct. God said he was the ONLY God and there are NO other gods. The Catholic and Protestant Jesus are the same, whereas the Mormon Jesus was a created being. My step great grand-father was the President of the Mormon church and he wrote that Jesus and the Father were separte divine beings.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Read Titus and you will see Jesus and the Father both called the Saviour. God came in flesh, read John chapter 1. There are many other verses. BTW, the created will never be more than the creator. He ALONE is the Lord forever, and NO ONE will become a god.

The problem with religion is that man adds to it. You have Peter, Mary and Joesph Smith, try Jesus, the Word of God is all the words you need.
 
"
The name Peter (Petros) a masculine noun means small rock or stone. In Mt. 16:18 is the first time it is used saying “I will build my church”, a future event when the Spirit is sent and the body of Christ is formed. Jesus said “ I say unto you ,you are Peter (Petros) and upon this Rock (Petra feminine noun meaning a massive rock) I will build my church.”

If Jesus were actually referring to Peter as the rock, Jesus would not have used the MASCULINE word petros for the rock. Jesus instead used a different Greek word for “this rock” a FEMININE word petra indicating something other than Peter. (John 14:26; 16:13). Arguments such as they spoke in Aramaic don’t hold up either. Maybe they did speak this language but it was written in the Greek and therefore the distinction. The ones that were there and heard what Jesus said wrote it in Greek."
evanfaust - **from catholic library.com **

…I understand your thinking," he said, “but you Catholics misunderstand this verse because you don’t know any Greek. That’s the trouble with your Church and with your scholars. You people don’t know the language in which the New Testament was written. To understand Matthew 16:18, we have to get behind the English to the Greek.”
Yes," he said. “In Greek, the word for rock is petra, which means a large, massive stone. The word used for Simon’s new name is different; it’s Petros, which means a little stone, a pebble.”

In reality, what the missionary was telling me at this point was false. As Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, **the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. **They meant “small stone” and “large rock” in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant “rock.” If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used. The missionary’s argument didn’t work and showed a faulty knowledge of Greek. (For an Evangelical Protestant Greek scholar’s admission of this, see D. A. Carson, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984], Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., 8:368).

“You Catholics,” the missionary continued, “because you don’t know Greek, imagine that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock. Actually, of course, it was just the opposite. He was contrasting them. On the one side, the rock on which the Church would be built, Jesus himself; on the other, this mere pebble. Jesus was really saying that he himself would be the foundation, and he was emphasizing that Simon wasn’t remotely qualified to be it.” Well," I replied, beginning to use that nugget of information I had come across, “I agree with you that we must get behind the English to the Greek.” He smiled some more and nodded. “But I’m sure you’ll agree with me that we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic.”

“The what?” he asked.

“The Aramaic,” I said. “As you know, Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke. It was the common language of the place.”

“I thought Greek was.”

“No,” I answered. "Many, if not most of them, knew Greek, of course, because Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world. It was the language of culture and commerce; and most of the books of the New Testament were written in it, because they were written not just for Christians in Palestine but also for Christians in places such as Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, places where Aramaic wasn’t the spoken language.

“I say most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Many hold that Matthew was written in Aramaic—we know this from records kept by Eusebius of Caesarea—but it was translated into Greek early on, perhaps by Matthew himself. In any case the Aramaic original is lost (as are all the originals of the New Testament books), so all we have today is the Greek.”
We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

“What’s more,” I said, "in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as **Cephas. ****That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form). **
"And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

“When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that **Jesus was equating Simon **and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ In French one word, pierre, has always been used both for Simon’s new name anWait a second,” he said. “If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?”

“Because he had no choice,” I said. "Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings.
 
**cont’d Peter the Rock **-

Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. **Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the ****household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). **This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy.

.
 
I was an LDS missionary who served in Honduras. No is disouting what you say about what the LDS Church teaches now. However, it is no secret that Joseph changed over time as to what y’all should believe. For example, in Lectures on Faith, Chapter 5, Joseph taught that while Jesus had a body of flesh and bones, God was a taberbacle of Spirit. It was not until later that it was taught that God also had flesh and bones.
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Answersplease:
I’m glad your back.

I’ve grown tired debating the Mormons.

They just keep repeating the same old arguments and act like my earlier debates with them never happened.

I hope you never get tired and I hope you keep spreading the Truth.
 
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The Bible also says that we are spirit …Even though we clearly have a body of flesh and bones:

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” Rom 8:9

By this reckoning, God, too, can be said to not be “in the flesh” because he follows spiritual principles.

In addition Latter Day Saints responds by quoting D & C 93:33-35:

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.”

That is the reason Jesus Christ is a resurrected being and ascended to heaven with his body, and for this reason all mankind will be resurrected. A resurrected person is superior to someone with only a spirit. It stands to reason the Father also has glorified and immortal body like Jesus. Otherwise, why would Jesus have an immortal a glorified body and the Fathers would not?
The Catholic and Protestant Jesus are the same, whereas the Mormon Jesus was a created being.
Your understanding of Jesus is limited and contaminated by the Nicene Creed, which was concocted by men! That is when man added to the scriptures! If you read your Bible carefully you will see that Spirit of Jesus was the first begotten by the Father. However, that does not imply that Jesus had a beginning. Jesus always existed from eternity to eternity as intelligence or light and truth before he inherited a spiritual body and a physical body.

He was the first spirit among all the children of God, the Father.

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” Col 1:15

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” Rom 8:29

Our spirits are offspring of God, who is the Father or our spirits.

“Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.” Acts 17:29

“Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” Heb 12:9

Jesus confirmed that we are his siblings and that we have the same Father:

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” John 20:17
God said he was the ONLY God and there are NO other gods.
Maybe you would like to try to contrast the Father and the Son. According to your belief, the Father has only a spirit, while the Son has a spirit and body. You probably agree that Jesus is also God, consequently we have two Gods: one that has only a spirit (Father) and the other that has spirit and body (Jesus). There goes down your concept of Trinity!
 
dianaid:

Thank you for your answer and comments on my post(s). I understand your position, I hope you understand mine. May I say that after reading your explanations and comments that you are doing exactly what you have accused me of doing.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
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Answersplease:
thank you. I will not grow tired. Most of the Mormons have put me on ignore. They love to argue with those who have never been Mormon and tell them they have no idea what they talk about, but when they meet someone who has been LDS, who served in a mission, who served in the Bishopric, who has been in several temples, they ignore them because they know I know. I even had one member call me a liar and say I never served a mission. When I posted pics of my mission, he got really quiet and refused to apologize for saying I lied.

That is what the LDS Church is about. So, we need to pray for them, like the people who prayed for me when I was LDS. Prayer works on even the hardest of LDS hearts.
 
thank you. I will not grow tired. Most of the Mormons have put me on ignore. They love to argue with those who have never been Mormon and tell them they have no idea what they talk about, but when they meet someone who has been LDS, who served in a mission, who served in the Bishopric, who has been in several temples, they ignore them because they know I know. I even had one member call me a liar and say I never served a mission. When I posted pics of my mission, he got really quiet and refused to apologize for saying I lied.

That is what the LDS Church is about. So, we need to pray for them, like the people who prayed for me when I was LDS. Prayer works on even the hardest of LDS hearts.
They can’t hear truth. All the better reason to not give up. You should keep posting, just, don’t get banned. The mormons are also quick on the report button…trying to get you silenced. That is what most of their posts, aimed at former members, are comprised of…they want us silenced.
 
They can’t hear truth. All the better reason to not give up. You should keep posting, just, don’t get banned. The mormons are also quick on the report button…trying to get you silenced. That is what most of their posts, aimed at former members, are comprised of…they want us silenced.
👍👍👍
 
They can’t hear truth. All the better reason to not give up. You should keep posting, just, don’t get banned. The mormons are also quick on the report button…trying to get you silenced. That is what most of their posts, aimed at former members, are comprised of…they want us silenced.
I know.
 
**cont’d Peter the Rock **-

Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. **Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the ****household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). **This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy.

.
Lax16,

I suppose you perhaps haven’t thought through this that you quoted, or haven’t really read Isaiah 22:21-23 and thought about the meaning of the phrase “a nail in a sure place.” How in the world anyone familiar with the Bible and being a believer in Christ can think anything but that that verse is talking about the crucifixion and thus the atonement of Christ, amazes and baffles me. Is it that well hidden in such a simple phrase?
 
Lax16,

I suppose you perhaps haven’t thought through this that you quoted, or haven’t really read Isaiah 22:21-23 and thought about the meaning of the phrase “a nail in a sure place.” How in the world anyone familiar with the Bible and being a believer in Christ can think anything but that that verse is talking about the crucifixion and thus the atonement of Christ, amazes and baffles me. Is it that well hidden in such a simple phrase?
Interesting point, Parker. However, look at verse Isaiah 22:20

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my **servant Eliacim **the son of Helcias.
Douay-Rheims commentary - Eliacim, who had been displaced, v. 15. **He acted as **regent after the departure of Manasses, who always followed his counsels at his return. Judith iv.5. The priesthood was not then incompatible with civil and military functions.

Isaiah 22:22

And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.
D-R commentary - Shoulder. Here the marks of dignity were worn. **Eliacim was **oppointed master of the palace, over all the other servants. C.- Thus we may gather what power Christ conferred on S. Peter, when he have him the keys of heaven. Mat. xvi 19. Apoc. iii 7.
 
Lax16,

I suppose you perhaps haven’t thought through this that you quoted, or haven’t really read Isaiah 22:21-23 and thought about the meaning of the phrase “a nail in a sure place.” How in the world anyone familiar with the Bible and being a believer in Christ can think anything but that that verse is talking about the crucifixion and thus the atonement of Christ, amazes and baffles me. Is it that well hidden in such a simple phrase?
Parker - Catholics are not alone in their interpretation of Isaiah 22:21-23

BIBLE COMMENTARY ON “KEYS” OF ISAIAH 22:22

**William F. Albright and C.S. Mann **are quite certain when they comment on Matthew 16:19 –

“Isaiah 22:15ff undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority], and Roland de Vaux [Ancient Israel, tr. by John McHugh, NY: McGraw-Hill, 1961] rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain, of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah; it was Hilkiah’s position until he was ousted, and Jotham as regent is also described as ‘over the household’ [2 Kings 15:5]…It is of considerable importance that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are being discussed [cf. Matt 18:18; John 20:23] the symbol of the keys is absent, since the sayings apply in those instances to a wider circle…The role of Peter as steward of the Kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority, as was the case of the OT chamberlain who held the ‘keys.’ The clauses ‘on earth,’ ‘in heaven’, have reference to the permanent character of the steward’s work.” (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, page 196-197)

**The Evangelical New Bible Commentary **states on Isaiah 22 –

“Eliakim stands in strong contrast to Shebna, over whom he seems to have been promoted when they reappear in 36:3…Godward he is called my servant (20)…manward he will be a father to his community (21)…The key…of David (22) comes in this context of accountability. A key was a substantial object, tucked in the girdle or slung over the shoulder; but the opening words of v. 22…emphasize the God-given responsibility that went with it, to be used in the king’s interests. The ‘shutting’ and ‘opening’ means the power to make decisions which no one under the king could override. This is the background of the commission to Peter (cf. Mt 16:19) and to the church (cf. Mt 18:18)… Ultimate authority, however, is claimed, in these terms, for Christ himself (cf. Rev 3:7-8).” (NBC page 647)

**The Evangelical NIV Study Bible **notes on Isaiah 22 –

on verse 15: “…in charge of the palace. A position second only to the king…”; on verse 22: “…key to the house of David. The authority delegated to him by the king, who belongs to David’s dynasty – perhaps controlling entrance into the royal palace. Cf. the ‘keys of the kingdom’ given to Peter (Mt 16:19) .”

**The Lutheran/Catholic ecumenical study **Peter in the New Testament comments –

“One suggestion is that the verse [Matt 16:19] is evocative of Isa 22:15-25 where Shebna, prime minister of King Hezekiah of Judah, is deposed and replaced by Eliakim on whose shoulder God places ‘the key of David; he shall open…and he shall shut.’ The power of the key of the Davidic kingdom is the power to open and to shut, i.e., the prime minister’s power to allow or refuse entrance to the palace, which involves access to the king. If this were the background of Matthew’s ‘keys of the kingdom,’ then Peter might be being portrayed as a type of prime minister in the kingdom that Jesus has come to proclaim, and the power of binding and loosing would be a specification of the broader power of allowing or refusing entrance into the kingdom…The prime minister, more literally ‘major-domo,’ was the man called in Hebrew ‘the one who is over the house,’ a term borrowed from the Egyptian designation of the chief palace functionary.” (Brown, Reumann, et al page 96-97, and footnote referring to Roland DeVaux Ancient Israel)

**The Brethren/Mennonite **commentary by Richard B. Gardner –

“The image of the keys likely comes from an oracle in Isaiah, which speaks of the installation of a new majordomo or steward in Hezekiah’s palace.” (Gardner, page 248)

**Evangelical scholar **F.F. Bruce comments –

“And what about the ‘keys of the kingdom’ ? The keys of a royal or noble establishment ]were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim …(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward.” (Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus [Intervarsity Press, 1983], 143-144, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 41)
 
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” Rom 8:9
<< Before we are saved we are of the flesh, this verse means the Holy Spirit dwells in us, after we are saved. In the Spirit is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God dwells in us, this does not refer to us as a spirit. Read Romans chalpters 5 to 7 and you will see the flesh - spirit difference.

<< I am not contaminated by the Nicene Creed, I just used th ebible words alone. I have many verses showing Jesus is the Father.

<< “He is the image of the invisible God, Jesus was in the flesh, in order to die. The father is still a spirit. Don’t mix God and Jesus. The question is does God have flesh.

<< Check this out, Mormons are excellent steller American conservatives, and will quickly point out America is an original Christian nation at its founding. Yet, that is not possible in Mormon doctrine, if the church fell away after Paul, then there was no true Christianity in 1776. Because Joseph Smith came in the 1840s to retore the church. How can it be so? This is a conflict.

<< Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church. Yet you say it did.
So you believe for 2000 years there were no Christians? No way.

<<Paul used an example of a death in a marriage to show how the law has no more governess over us because of grace. LDS has changed the words of Jesus and I’ll stick to what Jesus said, not a confused teen from NY State.
 
I’m about to be uncomfortably blunt again

We do not believe that any of this is 'calling Jesus a liar." Quite the contrary. We believe that Christ called prophets and gave them revelation, and there is absolutely no indication anywhere that this should stop. There is quite a bit of warning in the NT about apostasy…and whadda ya know, we believe that there was, indeed, an apostasy.
Yes, God called prophets and prophets revealed God to His people little by little UNTIL God became man and FULLY revealed Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ. After that, there was no more need of “prophets.” THAT is the “indication” that “this should stop.” Christ told his followers to preach the Gospel to all nations “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” (Matt 28:19-20). Paul said if someone were to preach a new gospel, even if that someone is an angel, that person is cursed:

I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! Galatians 1:6-9

Those are the reasons we believe prophecy has ceased.
 
How can the Catholics believe that their god is so puny that He would allow so many heresies…put down, in some cases, in rather violent manners…and would allow Protestantism to arise?

As to your question about Joseph Smith…if we believe that Joseph Smith is greater than Jesus, then by the VERY same reasoning, you believe that Peter, James, John, Luke, Paul and others are also greater than He.

The answer, of course, is free will. It’s not that God is puny…after all, He DID warn us about apostasy. It is that God has allowed us free will. If we can’t actually exercise it, it’s not free will, is it?
No, we don’t believe Peter, James, John, Luke, Paul, the pope, the bishops are greater than Jesus, because they are spreading the Gospel message Jesus commanded them to do so, not a new “gospel” preached by an American in the 1800s.

Yes, heresies come about, as you say, from the free will that God has given us, but also because human beings are “scandalized” by the truths God has revealed to us and therefore try to put God into terms mere humans can understand. So, you can’t understand the Trinity–how there can be only one God and at the same time three persons in one God ? Then be like the Mormons and say there is no Trinity and God the Father is a God and Jesus is a God and everybody can be a God. Can’t understand how the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity could be both True God and true man at one and the same time in the Incarnation? Then be like the Mormons and say God the Father was once a human being just like us who later on became a God and every human male (after the 1970s, because before then, black men were excluded) has the same ability, as long as he goes to the Temple and gets sacred underwear.

No, the Mormon god is very puny. Because instead of believing that human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, Mormons believe their god is made in the image and likeness of human beings.
 
lax16;6600606:
dianaiad;6600409:
How can the Catholics believe that their god is so puny that He would allow so many heresies…put down, in some cases, in rather violent manners…and would allow Protestantism to arise?

The comment was a direct response to this:

I believe that explains the comment, as does the context from which you extracted the portion you are demanding an explanation about. Since the Mormons do NOT believe that God is at all puny, nor do we believe that Joseph Smith is a “greater god than Jesus,” then the least one can say about mmisiliana is that s/he was begging the question…and my response to him/her showed exactly how absurd the charge was. I figured that responding as I did indicated to him/her just how insulting and absurd a statement came from his/her keyboard.

In fact, I find it…interesting, if unfortunately typical, that there is an instant and indignant demand that I explain MY comments, but nobody has called mmsiciliana on the insulting and over-the-top claims in THAT post. I take it that the acceptance quotient of insult depends entirely on the target, as usual?

If you are talking about my statement that Catholics have sometimes squashed heretics in a violent manner… well…do you really want to go there, lax?

Albegensians, for instance? The Spanish Inquisition? Giordano Bruno, burned at the stake for believing in Copernicanism and other heresies, not to mention the execution of Cayetano Ripoli, who was executed at an auto de fey by the Spanish Inquisition in 1826?

History is what it is, lax. People are who they are, and God allows us to screw up. He allows us to believe incorrect things and do what we want, even when what we want to do is horrific.

If He did not, then you may as well throw the whole concept of free will out the window, and blame Him for all things. Of course, many Christians do just that, anyway…

Diana
Oh, but Diana, you have no excuse for continuing to believe a falsehood over the truth. You’ve been exposed to the truth, but you’d rather cling to fairy tale. And you can’t blame God for that. He’s shown you the way, the truth and the life. You may think my questions/comments are insulting. I find it insulting to God that you would think He needs Joseph Smith’s help to re-build the Church you and Joseph Smith say fell into “apostasy” when Christ said His Church would prevail EVEN against the gates of hell itself.

If you did a little historical study, and read the early Church fathers, you would see that the early Church fathers taught and believed as the Catholic Church still teaches and believes today. You would find there is historical evidence for the Catholic Church. What you will not find are:
  1. The “new Gospel” taught by Joseph Smith.
  2. Any archeological evidence of anything taught by Joseph Smith. No dead bodies/bones, etc. from all those battles. No “gold plates”. No ummim and thummim, etc., etc., etc.
  3. The “temple” ceremonies (handshakes, special name, etc.) and sacred underwear are modeled after Masonic practices.
 
Parker - Catholics are not alone in their interpretation of Isaiah 22:21-23

BIBLE COMMENTARY ON “KEYS” OF ISAIAH 22:22

**William F. Albright and C.S. Mann **are quite certain when they comment on Matthew 16:19 –

“Isaiah 22:15ff undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority], and Roland de Vaux [Ancient Israel, tr. by John McHugh, NY: McGraw-Hill, 1961] rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain, of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah; it was Hilkiah’s position until he was ousted, and Jotham as regent is also described as ‘over the household’ [2 Kings 15:5]…It is of considerable importance that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are being discussed [cf. Matt 18:18; John 20:23] the symbol of the keys is absent, since the sayings apply in those instances to a wider circle…The role of Peter as steward of the Kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority, as was the case of the OT chamberlain who held the ‘keys.’ The clauses ‘on earth,’ ‘in heaven’, have reference to the permanent character of the steward’s work.” (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, page 196-197)

**The Evangelical New Bible Commentary **states on Isaiah 22 –

“Eliakim stands in strong contrast to Shebna, over whom he seems to have been promoted when they reappear in 36:3…Godward he is called my servant (20)…manward he will be a father to his community (21)…The key…of David (22) comes in this context of accountability. A key was a substantial object, tucked in the girdle or slung over the shoulder; but the opening words of v. 22…emphasize the God-given responsibility that went with it, to be used in the king’s interests. The ‘shutting’ and ‘opening’ means the power to make decisions which no one under the king could override. This is the background of the commission to Peter (cf. Mt 16:19) and to the church (cf. Mt 18:18)… Ultimate authority, however, is claimed, in these terms, for Christ himself (cf. Rev 3:7-8).” (NBC page 647)

**The Evangelical NIV Study Bible **notes on Isaiah 22 –

on verse 15: “…in charge of the palace. A position second only to the king…”; on verse 22: “…key to the house of David. The authority delegated to him by the king, who belongs to David’s dynasty – perhaps controlling entrance into the royal palace. Cf. the ‘keys of the kingdom’ given to Peter (Mt 16:19) .”

**The Lutheran/Catholic ecumenical study **Peter in the New Testament comments –

“One suggestion is that the verse [Matt 16:19] is evocative of Isa 22:15-25 where Shebna, prime minister of King Hezekiah of Judah, is deposed and replaced by Eliakim on whose shoulder God places ‘the key of David; he shall open…and he shall shut.’ The power of the key of the Davidic kingdom is the power to open and to shut, i.e., the prime minister’s power to allow or refuse entrance to the palace, which involves access to the king. If this were the background of Matthew’s ‘keys of the kingdom,’ then Peter might be being portrayed as a type of prime minister in the kingdom that Jesus has come to proclaim, and the power of binding and loosing would be a specification of the broader power of allowing or refusing entrance into the kingdom…The prime minister, more literally ‘major-domo,’ was the man called in Hebrew ‘the one who is over the house,’ a term borrowed from the Egyptian designation of the chief palace functionary.” (Brown, Reumann, et al page 96-97, and footnote referring to Roland DeVaux Ancient Israel)

**The Brethren/Mennonite **commentary by Richard B. Gardner –

“The image of the keys likely comes from an oracle in Isaiah, which speaks of the installation of a new majordomo or steward in Hezekiah’s palace.” (Gardner, page 248)

**Evangelical scholar **F.F. Bruce comments –

"And what about the ‘keys of the kingdom’ ? The keys of a royal or noble establishment ]were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo
; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim …(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward." (Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus [Intervarsity Press, 1983], 143-144, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 41)

Lax16,

But not one of those seems to have addressed the singular phrase, “a nail in a sure place”. That is the phrase that brings the meaning into the entire passage about the key of David and Who is the bearer of that key. Oh, well.
 
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