Joseph Smith's changing doctrine of deity

[lax16]

Lax16,
Peter did not replace Christ as the One upon whom the Corner Stone of the church was founded. Yet when Matthew 16:18 is made to mean that Peter is the “rock” upon which the “church” is built, then that is exactly what is being done; and when the teaching that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” is made to mean that “it” refers to “church body” rather than to “this rock” which is “the Corner Stone”, then “Peter” (who himself never taught this, so he is placed there in name only but not in spirit or in the attribute of his actual calling as the presiding apostle) and a human institution has been placed into a position of replacing Christ and His divine keys of salvation, revelation, and triumph over death and hell.

Peter did not replace Christ. Jesus does promise that Peter and his successors would be, to the end, the “supreme pastors and princes” of the Church. Once again, Douay-Rheims commentary states "No one questions but that Christ himself is the great foundation-stone, the chief corner-stone…Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same…

Aren’t all churches “human institutions?” I am not sure what you are objecting to here? The Catholic Church is not a “human institution that has been put into place to replace Christ and His divine keys of salvation, revelation, and triumph over death.” It was Jesus’ plan to leave behind a church founded on His principles and left in the hands of those He personally selected to spread the news of His Church. Why would one take issue with that?

 

[RebeccaJ]

ParkerD has been given all of this information before. He’d just rather keep projecting his mormon belief of a “great apostasy” onto Catholics, and act surprised that we aren’t buying it.

It is difficult, for whatever reasons, for Mormons to believe that what belongs to Jesus Christ He keeps renewed, forever. They’d rather believe that He has not been able to bear our sinful nature. Which, is really a very sad commentary on their understanding of the Cross.

 

[twopekinguys]

ParkerD has been given all of this information before. He’d just rather keep projecting his mormon belief of a “great apostasy” onto Catholics, and act surprised that we aren’t buying it.

It’s called Prostlytizing

It is difficult, for whatever reasons, for Mormons to believe that what belongs to Jesus Christ He keeps renewed, forever. They’d rather believe that He has not been able to bear our sinful nature. Which, is really a very sad commentary on their understanding of the Cross.

Agreed.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Lax16,

Christ did indeed give keys to the apostles, but yet He holds the key to the gate of salvation and the keys to death and hell. He is the Rock of salvation. He is the Corner Stone whom the builders rejected. Why did they reject Him? Because they rejected revelation, and rejected that the Son of God would come with a spiritual kingdom rather than with a physical kingdom.

Peter did not replace Christ as the One upon whom the Corner Stone of the church was founded. Yet when Matthew 16:18 is made to mean that Peter is the “rock” upon which the “church” is built, then that is exactly what is being done; and when the teaching that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” is made to mean that “it” refers to “church body” rather than to “this rock” which is “the Corner Stone”, then “Peter” (who himself never taught this, so he is placed there in name only but not in spirit or in the attribute of his actual calling as the presiding apostle) and a human institution has been placed into a position of replacing Christ and His divine keys of salvation, revelation, and triumph over death and hell.

OK, I’ve read enough of this and now I have to speak up.

Here are the verses in the Bible that point to Simon Peter being the first “pope”–the vicar, the steward of Christ and His Church on earth.

Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:17-19

Jesus renamed Simon and gave him the name Rock which had never been used as a name previously. In Greek, which has feminine and masculine nouns, rock is a feminine noun, petra and its masculine counterpart is petros which we translate as Peter and which means small stone or pebble. However, Jesus was not speaking in Greek, he was speaking in Aramaic where the nouns are not masculine or feminine. So, Jesus said, "And so I say to you, you are Cephas (Rock) and upon this cephas (rock) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Notice–the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. AND, Jesus also says, “And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Matthew 28:20 No apostasy, therefore, could be possible, or you’re saying Jesus, the way the truth and the life (John 14:6) was a liar.

And the key does refer to the key spoken of in Isaiah 22:22: 22 “I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.” Jesus is the holder of the key, but he gives the key to Peter to hold on earth as his steward.

The verse “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” could be better translated as “Whatever you bind on earth shall have already been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have already been loosed in heaven.” This gives a better sense to us who speak modern English of how Jesus was giving Peter “stewardship” over the Church on earth. He’s telling Peter that he will be the earthly representative of Christ on earth, but it is Christ’s Church. And He tells us that He will send the Holy Spirit to the Church to guide it into the knowledge of all truth; including the truth that was too difficult for them to bear at the beginning:
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. John 16: 12-13

This does NOT mean that Jesus was telling us lies and later on we would hear a “new gospel”! The truth that was to be revealed has to be congruent with the truth that had already been revealed. It cannot be the opposite.

Look at what Jesus said to Peter at the Last Supper: “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.” Luke 22: 31-32 It is Peter’s job to lead the other disciples. Jesus knew Peter would deny Him, He predicted it at the Last Supper. But notice what He says, “ONCE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK”

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep. John 21:15-17

After Jesus has risen from the dead (something Joseph Smith did not do), he appears to Peter and some of the other disciples on the sea shore. They have a miraculous catch of fish (Jesus told them they would become fishers of men) and Jesus cooks a fire and eats fish with them. Then he asks Peter three times if Peter loves Him. He gives Peter the opportunity three times to say he loves Him to make up for the three times Peter denied Him. And each time Peter replies, “Yes,” Jesus tells him to “Feed my lambs,”, “Tend my sheep,” and “Feed my sheep.” The Good Shepherd, who knows His sheep and whose sheep know Him gives His sheep into the keeping of the first pope.

 

[mmsiciliana]

And I’m still looking for an answer as to how the LDS can possibly believe that their god is so puny that his church, founded by Jesus, who the LDS say is divine; and is therefore a god, fell into apostasy and their god then needed to call on Joseph Smith to resurrect it. Is Joseph Smith now a greater god than Jesus?

 

[evanfaust]

evanfaust - Please cite specific examples when claiming that “the conflict between the teachings of Christ and the interpretations of the Jewish religions of the time are evident” and clarify your statement “Christ did not endorse any existing Jewish organization.”

thanks!

Instead of endorsing the Saducees and the Pharisees for example, Jesus founded his own Church. That to me is enough evidence. But the scriptures shows even more evidence of that.

As far as the rejection…In reality the Jewish establishment rejected Christ and revelation. Please read Matthew 21 for the whole picture.

“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Mat 21:42-43

 

[evanfaust]

Notice–the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. AND, Jesus also says, “And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Matthew 28:20 No apostasy, therefore, could be possible, or you’re saying Jesus, the way the truth and the life (John 14:6) was a liar.

Mmsiciliana,

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Mormons believe in that too. Joseph Smith went through Christ…in fact Christ called Joseph to be His prophet in the last days and restore His Church. So, we Mormons completely endorse this scripture. We have no problem with it. Mormons believe in Christ, follow Christ and preach of Christ and the Mormon Church bears His name.

The expression “end of the world” comes from the Greek word “aion”, which means “age”, “epoch” or “era” and not necessarily endless time. Mat 28:20 refers to a period of time, more precisely it means the end of a dispensation. In this case it was the dispensation that would end aproximately 100 AD, the dispensation of Meridian of times. See the article below for more information about the word “aion.”

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RI6eM_TCXMQJ:www.elevangeliodelreino.org/miselania/THE_MEANING_OF_THE_GREEK_WORD_AIONIOS.doc+aion+meaning+end+of+ages+or+epoch&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[evanfaust]

Instead of endorsing the Saducees and the Pharisees for example, Jesus founded his own Church. That to me is enough evidence. But the scriptures shows even more evidence than that.

As far as the rejection…In reality the Jewish establishment rejected Christ and revelation. Please read Matthew 21 for the whole picture.

“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Mat 21:42-43

 

[mmsiciliana]

Instead of endorsing the Saducees and the Pharisees for example, Jesus founded his own Church. That to me is enough evidence. But the scriptures shows even more evidence of that.

As far as the rejection…In reality the Jewish establishment rejected Christ and revelation. Please read Matthew 21 for the whole picture.

“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Mat 21:42-43

Yes, meaning the Gospel that was preached to them would be taken to the Gentiles.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Mmsiciliana,

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Mormons believe in that too. Joseph Smith went through Christ…in fact Christ called Joseph to be His prophet in the last days and restore His Church. So, we Mormons completely endorse this scripture. We have no problem with it. Mormons believe in Christ, follow Christ and preach of Christ and the Mormon Church bears His name.

The expression “end of the world” comes from the Greek word “aion”, which means “age”, “epoch” or “era” and not necessarily endless time. Mat 28:20 refers to a period of time, more precisely it means the end of a dispensation. In this case it was the dispensation that would end aproximately 100 AD, the dispensation of Meridian of times. See the article below for more information about the word “aion.”

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RI6eM_TCXMQJ:www.elevangeliodelreino.org/miselania/THE_MEANING_OF_THE_GREEK_WORD_AIONIOS.doc+aion+meaning+end+of+ages+or+epoch&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Sorry. What part of “And I will be WITH YOU ALWAYS” do the LDS not understand? Jesus said HE is The TRUTH. Therefore, He cannot lie. He said He will be with us always. That means there cannot be an apostasy in His Church. The Greek word “aion” may not necessarily imply “endless time” but ALWAYS does. So, when you put the two together, you do not get a “dispensation.”

 

[ldsmom_2011]

I would attribute this to they way the LDS church believes in current revelation. Much of the church’s doctrine is able to change through the years because they believe in current prophets. Is that how an LDS person would explain that?

You got to seriously be kidding me…Our church beliefs never change…and neither does our church doctorine…We go by the scriptures found by Joseph Smith and translated for us to read. We never broke down the words and never changed the doctrine of our Savior Jesus Christ…our Heavenly Father and Savior in which we believe…We do get new prophets but they never change the church’s doctrine and I think you are judging us by this I really think you need to go sit in one of the LDS Wards in your area…and you will see that our church’s are rather similiar…But like you guys we believe that Jesus Christ died on a Christ to save our sins and then his body was placed in a building where he was resurrected…The LDS Baptism is kinda similiar to yours also…we just believe that Jesus Christ went to John the Baptist and was baptized by immersion of water…Not by trickling of water on the head…But seriously…get real!!!

 

[twopekinguys]

You got to seriously be kidding me…Our church beliefs never change…and neither does our church doctorine…We go by the scriptures found by Joseph Smith and translated for us to read. We never broke down the words and never changed the doctrine of our Savior Jesus Christ…our Heavenly Father and Savior in which we believe…We do get new prophets but they never change the church’s doctrine and I think you are judging us by this I really think you need to go sit in one of the LDS Wards in your area…and you will see that our church’s are rather similiar…But like you guys we believe that Jesus Christ died on a Christ to save our sins and then his body was placed in a building where he was resurrected…The LDS Baptism is kinda similiar to yours also…we just believe that Jesus Christ went to John the Baptist and was baptized by immersion of water…Not by trickling of water on the head…But seriously…get real!!!

So your church didn’t change the doctrine/beliefs regarding Blacks and the Priesthood? How about the doctrine/belief in practicing polygamy?

Those are just two well known examples of changes in belief/doctrines. Perhaps you are not as familiar with lds history as you think.

The only thing similar in our baptisms is the fact that you use water. lds belief in God is far from trinitarian, and since you don’t believe in original sin, or the fact that a valid baptism leaves an indelible mark on a person’s soul, that separates our baptsims even further.

Maybe you should do a little more research, and get real!!!

 

[mmsiciliana]

You got to seriously be kidding me…Our church beliefs never change…and neither does our church doctorine…We go by the scriptures found by Joseph Smith and translated for us to read. We never broke down the words and never changed the doctrine of our Savior Jesus Christ…our Heavenly Father and Savior in which we believe…We do get new prophets but they never change the church’s doctrine and I think you are judging us by this I really think you need to go sit in one of the LDS Wards in your area…and you will see that our church’s are rather similiar…But like you guys we believe that Jesus Christ died on a Christ to save our sins and then his body was placed in a building where he was resurrected…The LDS Baptism is kinda similiar to yours also…we just believe that Jesus Christ went to John the Baptist and was baptized by immersion of water…Not by trickling of water on the head…But seriously…get real!!!

Really? Your church’s beliefs never change? Does this look familiar:

Joseph Smith first president, prophet, and founder of the Mormon Church:

Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218).

“Thursday, 8–Held Mayor’s court and tried two negroes for attempting to marry two white women: fined one $25, and the other $5” (ibid., 6: 210).

and the rebellious niggers in the slave states. . . " (Millennial Star, 22:602).

Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servants of servants;” and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:29)

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be (ibid., 10:110)

Brigham Young stated that his sermons (as cited above) are Scripture:

I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture (ibid., 13:95).

John Taylor, third President and Prophet.

after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God. . . . (ibid., 23:304).

In 1963, Look magazine interviewed, at that time, the leader of the LDS Church; Joseph Fielding Smith. Concerning negroes, Smith stated:

I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. ‘Darkies’ are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79).

Smith also taught that “Negroes” were inferior to other races:

Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was place upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning… we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren–children of God—notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness (The Way to Perfection, 101-02).

LDS Apostle and prolific writer Bruce R. McConkie:

Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them. Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned. . . . (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current).

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie comments as to the duration of the curse:

Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them…. (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 org. ed., changed in the current)

According to the Book of Mormon: Now, the decrees of God are unalterable. . . . (Alma 41:8)

But, in 1978 the Mormon god changed his mind:

June 8 1978, LDS President, Spencer W. Kimball, after spending many hours in the “Upper Room” of the LDS Temple, claimed that God had removed the curse. All worthy black men could now receive the Priesthood.

 

[evanfaust]

And I’m still looking for an answer as to how the LDS can possibly believe that their god is so puny that his church, founded by Jesus, who the LDS say is divine; and is therefore a god, fell into apostasy and their god then needed to call on Joseph Smith to resurrect it. Is Joseph Smith now a greater god than Jesus?

mmsiciliana,

You will not find any Mormon saying the Joseh Smith is greater than Jesus! Joseph Smith received revelation from Jesus Christ and therefore, Joseph was and is submissive to the commandments of the Master. Mormons also believe in John 14:6

The Saints (members of the Church of Christ) were defeated, which is another support for the argument of an apostasy:

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” Rev 13:7

“I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;” Dan 7:21

The woman in Rev 12 is the Church of Christ and it fled to the desert for a period of time, which is the apostasy.

“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” Rev 12:6

“And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”

The Child in this chapter is Christ as a King in the Kingdom of God on the earth, which was not established before the apostasy. You see that the child goes back to Heaven after the woman flees to the desert.

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Rev 14:

 

[evanfaust]

Really? Your church’s beliefs never change? Does this look familiar:

Joseph Smith first president, prophet, and founder of the Mormon Church:

Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218).

“Thursday, 8–Held Mayor’s court and tried two negroes for attempting to marry two white women: fined one $25, and the other $5” (ibid., 6: 210).

and the rebellious niggers in the slave states. . . " (Millennial Star, 22:602).

Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servants of servants;” and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:29)

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be (ibid., 10:110)

Brigham Young stated that his sermons (as cited above) are Scripture:

I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture (ibid., 13:95).

John Taylor, third President and Prophet.

after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God. . . . (ibid., 23:304).

In 1963, Look magazine interviewed, at that time, the leader of the LDS Church; Joseph Fielding Smith. Concerning negroes, Smith stated:

I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. ‘Darkies’ are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79).

Smith also taught that “Negroes” were inferior to other races:

Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was place upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning… we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren–children of God—notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness (The Way to Perfection, 101-02).

LDS Apostle and prolific writer Bruce R. McConkie:

Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them. Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned. . . . (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current).

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie comments as to the duration of the curse:

Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them…. (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 org. ed., changed in the current)

According to the Book of Mormon: Now, the decrees of God are unalterable. . . . (Alma 41:8)

But, in 1978 the Mormon god changed his mind:

June 8 1978, LDS President, Spencer W. Kimball, after spending many hours in the “Upper Room” of the LDS Temple, claimed that God had removed the curse. All worthy black men could now receive the Priesthood.

mmsiciliana,

When Peter was commanded to preach the gospel to the gentiles, was that a change of doctrine? Did that imply that God change his mind?

Opening the gospel to a group of people is not changing God’s way or doctrine. But if you believe it is, then you should not use that argument against the Mormons.

Some prophets of God practiced poligamy, some others did not. During a period of time People of God practiced poligamy and in some other periods they did not (This is in the Bible). Does that mean that God does not know what to do? Does it mean He is confused? I don’t think it is as simplistic as you want it to be!

 

[mmsiciliana]

mmsiciliana,

When Peter was commanded to preach the gospel to the gentiles, was that a change of doctrine? Did that imply that God change his mind?

Opening the gospel to a group of people is not changing God’s way or doctrine. But if you believe it is, then you should not use that argument against the Mormons.

Some prophets of God practiced poligamy, some others did not. During a period of time People of God practiced poligamy and in some other periods they did not (This is in the Bible). Does that mean that God does not know what to do? Does it mean He is confused? I don’t think it is as simplistic as you want it to be!

People in the Bible did lots of things that weren’t consistent with God or His laws and polygamy was one of them. In the Book of Genesis, God says He made man and woman and that a man should leave his mother and a woman leave her home and the two become one flesh, not one flesh until the guy finds another “wife” and then he can become one flesh with her, too. Jesus tells his disciples that Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of the people’s hearts–NOT because God said to allow it. Nowhere in the Bible does God limit the Gospel or the good news of salvation to the Jews. Even in the Old Testament, people of other nations came to belief in the one God–i.e., Ruth, the prostitute Rahab, etc. Nowhere in the Bible does God say an entire race is cursed and given black skin to prove it. That’s just the distorted thought of someone who claimed to be a prophet, but obviously, truly, was not. And, then you have another “prophet” come along to tell you your god “changed his mind.”

 

[mmsiciliana]

mmsiciliana,

You will not find any Mormon saying the Joseh Smith is greater than Jesus! Joseph Smith received revelation from Jesus Christ and therefore, Joseph was and is submissive to the commandments of the Master. Mormons also believe in John 14:6

The Saints (members of the Church of Christ) were defeated, which is another support for the argument of an apostasy:

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” Rev 13:7

“I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;” Dan 7:21

The woman in Rev 12 is the Church of Christ and it fled to the desert for a period of time, which is the apostasy.

“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” Rev 12:6

“And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”

The Child in this chapter is Christ as a King in the Kingdom of God on the earth, which was not established before the apostasy. You see that the child goes back to Heaven after the woman flees to the desert.

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Rev 14:

The FULLNESS of Revelation from God is given to us through the Word–Jesus Christ. God began to gradually reveal Himself to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. That revelation is given to us today through God’s written self-revelation–the Scriptures. However, God FULLY revealed Himself to us by becoming one of us–the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity–the Eternal Word spoken by the Father–became a human being 2000 years ago in Mary’s womb and died on the cross to save us from our sins.
Again, it’s the claim of the LDS that God couldn’t start a church that would last–that the devil overcame Christ’s Church–the Church Christ said the gates of hell could not prevail against–the Church Christ said he would remain with FOREVER. And then God had to call upon the wonderful Joseph Smith, and you say the LDS don’t say Joseph Smith is greater than Jesus Christ? Sorry…not buying it.

And the quotes from the Book of Revelation do not mean what you think they mean. The Book of Revelation was code language written by the Apostle John during the time of Nero’s persecution of the Church and it meant, “Stay strong in the faith, persevere to the end, because even though we are going through this persecution now, in the end, we will win out.”

“Saints” is synonymous with “holy ones” and does not mean the entire Church. The woman who fled into the desert is the Jewish religion, or the Virgin Mary. And yes, the child Jesus has been caught up by God and is in heaven. He ascended into heaven of his own power shortly after he was raised from the dead. But again, this is code language, and you cannot read it literally, just as you cannot read the creation accounts literally.

 

[evanfaust]

Sorry. What part of “And I will be WITH YOU ALWAYS” do the LDS not understand? Jesus said HE is The TRUTH. Therefore, He cannot lie. He said He will be with us always. That means there cannot be an apostasy in His Church. The Greek word “aion” may not necessarily imply “endless time” but ALWAYS does. So, when you put the two together, you do not get a “dispensation.”

mmsiciliana,

Here is Mat 28:20

“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age. Amen.” Mat 28:20

You don’t have an argument here! First of fall, Christ is speaking to the 11 apostles and He is saying that He will always be with them till the end of the dispensation. Even if the meaning is to be with the 11 apostles forever, it means that Jesus would be with them after their death and including resurrection, but not the whole Church collectively till his second comming, since “end of age” means that dispensation. We also know that the saints would be overcome and defeated and the church would fee to the desert, until its restoration and subsequent establishment of the kingdom.

 

[mmsiciliana]

mmsiciliana,

Here is Mat 28:20

“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age. Amen.” Mat 28:20

You don’t have an argument here! First of fall, Christ is speaking to the 11 apostles and He is saying that He will always be with them till the end of the dispensation. Even if the meaning is to be with the 11 apostles forever, it means that Jesus would be with them after their death and including resurrection, but not the whole Church collectively till his second comming, since “end of age” means that dispensation. We also know that the saints would be overcome and defeated and the church would fee to the desert, until its restoration and subsequent restoration of the kingdom.

Sorry. No we don’t know that the saints, meaning the Church, would be overcome and the Church would flee to the desert "until its restorations, etc. That is an interpretation the LDS may have, but it is not a correct interpretation. Christ gave the Church the pope and the apostles, and their followers to insure the correct interpretation would be passed on. Look at the verse before the one you quoted:

Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

ALL POWER–He’s not a weak god that can’t keep a Church together, especially a Church he said would withstand the gates of hell.

MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS–Is it your claim that the apostles were able to fulfill the command of Christ? Of course not. The bishops, who are the successors of the apostles, are still in the process of bringing the Gospel to all nations.

Therefore, He is with His Church ALWAYS, not just the apostles.

Your puny god is such a poor, little limited thing!

 

[lax16]

mmsiciliana,

Here is Mat 28:20

“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age. Amen.” Mat 28:20

You don’t have an argument here! First of fall, Christ is speaking to the 11 apostles and He is saying that He will always be with them till the end of the dispensation. Even if the meaning is to be with the 11 apostles forever, it means that Jesus would be with them after their death and including resurrection, but not the whole Church collectively till his second comming, since “end of age” means that dispensation. We also know that the saints would be overcome and defeated and the church would fee to the desert, until its restoration and subsequent establishment of the kingdom.

Uh evanfaust - why would Jesus tell them to “go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit” and not “go, therefore, but hurry up! because the whole darn thing is about to fall apart!”

Would Jesus really limit His Church to only the 11 apostles and whoever they could quickly baptize…but the rest, SORRY!!