Joseph Smiths Various Versions of the First Vision

  • Thread starter Thread starter TexanKnight
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
One of things that comes up in the lives of the mystics, and I am speaking of canonized saints, is that when the Lord comes to them with a locution…many times they were busy with all sorts of duties and distraction…but the message came…and they would remember every phrase and word…not forgetting a single one.

Another one for Catholics why we can’t believe Joseph Smith…no credibility.
 
Another is that Smith talks about golden plates, Reformed Egyptian calligraphy, etc, etc…but there is no evidence of any such thing…

Yet for us the physical evidence can be in the witness of Christ’s followers and His Apostles…Who left us the Empty Tomb…

Christ is the fulfillment ef all prophecy but His effects are most evident by His work in the Church in our hearts.
 
Coming from someone who deals daily with testimony, a person with various versions of an incident is not an honest person
 
It’d be interesting to organize a thread that has a one-on-one debate between a Mormon and one of the Christians of this forum, so we can get the full Mormon perspective. I think it is sometimes difficult to see in this forum because the Mormons are so inundated with comments and replies that it’s hard to get answers.
 
True, Fabius…but there are many sub divisions of Mormonism…someone, a former Catholic now Mormon, said he belonged to the Mormon church that did not believe in ‘those myths’.

And it is hard. They believe so far like us, then sort of…then ask why or answer our questions…it is just difficult…and from what I have experienced it would be most, most difficult to have just one Mormon speak for the Mormon religion vs one Catholic…the Catholic can depend on the Deposit of Faith and orthodox teachings we have held, drawn from the Apostles/Nicene Creed. Mormonism believes, however, in ongoing new revelation.
 
Mormonism is splintering, and people who advocate many different lines of thought are condemning others. One LDS would not be representative. Many LDS who are active on the internet are very divergent from others, who have not had their beliefs challenged. If you really wanted a true representative of LDS authority, it would have to be Thomas Monson.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
It’d be interesting to organize a thread that has a one-on-one debate between a Mormon and one of the Christians of this forum, so we can get the full Mormon perspective. I think it is sometimes difficult to see in this forum because the Mormons are so inundated with comments and replies that it’s hard to get answers.
Click to expand...
FabiusMaximus,

Although I only have my own perspective and share that (which is based on my experience and study), I would enjoy a one on one conversation with the writer of the book that I’ve sometimes noticed has been referred to on this forum as coming from a Catholic priest who had studied the Latter-day Saint beliefs in some depth. Then I could help allay his misconceptions.

I don’t see the need to answer questions when the person doing the asking is either quoting something off of an anti-Mormon website, or shows the tendency to keep asking what I would call “taunt questions” which differ from “sincere questions” in the way they are asked and the tone and purpose of the questions.

As far as the basic question of this thread, a sincere person wondering about this ought to take Acts 9, Acts 22, and Acts 26 and write down for themselves every detailed feature described in Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus when he heard the voice of Jesus. They will find substantive differences if they take the time to do that.

The insistence against the sincerity of Joseph Smith’s accounts by virtue of different elements described in the accounts, would therefore be an insistence against the sincerity of Paul’s accounts and Luke’s account describing Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus.

Thanks for the kindness in your post. I appreciate having come across it.
Have a wonderful day.
 
ParkerD said:
FabiusMaximus,

Although I only have my own perspective and share that (which is based on my experience and study), I would enjoy a one on one conversation with the writer of the book that I’ve sometimes noticed has been referred to on this forum as coming from a Catholic priest who had studied the Latter-day Saint beliefs in some depth. Then I could help allay his misconceptions.

Actually, if your heart is open, you would leave the false church.

I don’t see the need to answer questions when the person doing the asking is either quoting something off of an anti-Mormon website, or shows the tendency to keep asking what I would call “taunt questions” which differ from “sincere questions” in the way they are asked and the tone and purpose of the questions.

In the event you are referring to me (since I started this thread) the questions are not taunt questions. Nor do I get my questions from anti-LDS sites. I get them from MY years as an Mormon. From my time as a missionary. From MY time as a member of the ward bishopric and elder’s quorum presidency. THAT is what bothers you. I am someone who KNOWS and you have a tough time dealing with that.

As far as the basic question of this thread, a sincere person wondering about this ought to take Acts 9, Acts 22, and Acts 26 and write down for themselves every detailed feature described in Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus when he heard the voice of Jesus. They will find substantive differences if they take the time to do that.

The insistence against the sincerity of Joseph Smith’s accounts by virtue of different elements described in the accounts, would therefore be an insistence against the sincerity of Paul’s accounts and Luke’s account describing Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus.

RED HERRING ALERT! I have addressed this Parker several times, but he ignores it each time. The difference is Paul is NOT the writer of Acts, Luke is. And we do not know exactly WHO told him the events on the Road rto Damascus. We DO know that the book of Luke has been translated more than once since it was written almost 2000 years ago.

Now we have at least NINE versions of the alleged first vision. Unlike Luke, we KNOW they came Joseph Smith. Unlike Luke, they are told NOT by someone else, but by Joseph himself and unlike Luke, Joseph’s stories have not been translated many times over the last 180 years (not nearly 2000) but in the same English we speak. The Acts diversion is another popular LDS Red Herring. Joseph had several versions of an incredible event. That, if nothing else, shows him to be dishonest.

Peace, Parker. Come Home where you belong
Click to expand...
 
40.png
TexanKnight:
The Mormon propensity to not take serious questions seriously has a great deal to do with the number of people that are leaving that religion. FAIR/FARMS have tried to fill in, but their “answers” raise more questions.

I see often in online forums former and some practicing Mormons asking if the LDS church leadership will every come clean and just be up front with their members, and the world. Apologize for really screwed up things like denying priesthood to people of African descent, MMM, dark and loathsome Native Americans, etc. But the LDS church is so loathe to ever do anything that admits wrong doing, as though they are perfected already. I know several people where a simple confession of “hey we screwed up” and apologize would go a long way towards improving their struggles to remain Mormon.

I can’t see thatmitmcould ever happen though. It would raise too many red flags about the inspiration of it’s leaders, or lack thereof.
 
Rebecca…sad to hear…

Pope John Paul II asked the world forgiveness for the Church’s sins…and it appeased some people…but I don’t think it meant much to the indifferent…

I think for Mormonism to admit past mistakes and beliefs…actually would be a more positive impact for them.

For the Catholic Church, it will never OK contraception or abortion, that human life begins at conception…

I speak for the Church in this way because most people – Mormons take note – leave the Catholic Church not over doctrine, but because they were hurt or personal issues.

Generally speaking, Catholics who leave, don’t do so because they think doctrines are ‘corrupt’

…if anything what you witness today is many considering themselves in good standing in the Catholic Church inspite of their own personal practices of contraception…not realizing in many cases they are aborting a human being at its earliest stages and depopulating their own future…Japan is already a dying country, France is seeing its population of natives plummet…

Ironically the industrial countries are the ones contracepting themselves into extinction, while the countries they targeted…the poor ones, especially of color, are still growing.
 
I’d like to know what Parker objects to in these “anti-mormon” sites: In particular, WHAT materials are off base? Sandra Tanner’s site? What exactly in these sites/publications are intellectually dishonest? Tanner published photo copies of original documents that speak for themselves. Leaving the LDS that she loved had to be a great and tragic loss but a great and hugely profound JOY to her soul at the same time - when do true Christians abandon or to be more precise “SHUN” their loved ones? She and others are apparently hated for shouting from the rooftops. But Jesus said if they hate me, they will hate you too. Sandra is walking the path of the Master.

I had an Anatomy & Physiology Prof who said “Trust the evidence of your senses”. My senses tell me that the story of the “first vision” is very problematic - which of the 4 is TRUE? Frankly, in the depth of me would God the Father use a convicted teen-ager who used a peep-stone to get attention & money, whose tragic life continued to spin out of control concerning “visions”; spiritual manipulation of close friends, new converts, future converts evolving into 1000’s, now millions of adherents. In some cases sexual manipulation of couples despite a loyal wife - too many documents chronicle Smith & Young’s blatant exploits.

Flaunting of the Decalogue which we know GOD the FATHER CAN NEVER CHANGE as he CHANGETH NOT - as in “You shall not commit Adultery” can not be “scripture twisted” into polygamy - what part of impossible to tamper with the Decalogue don’t people understand? Smith, Young & Co’s legacy of a (another) gospel preached by an “angel” is a denial of the true gospel of Christ Jesus. There are simple, basic CHRISTIAN, GODLY principles that especially early believing LDS seemed to turn a blind eye to. My senses tell me many things about early mormonism are very problematic - I’ve researched for 32 years now. I’ll forever hold my ground and perhaps do not keep the
‘calm" - but setting emotions aside, what is the content of anyone’ posts adding up to?

Gentle, soothing deliveries are admirable; however content and promotion of a false, johnny-come-lately, American home - grown gospel is problematic. 👍
 
KathleenGee said:
Rebecca…sad to hear…

Pope John Paul II asked the world forgiveness for the Church’s sins…and it appeased some people…but I don’t think it meant much to the indifferent…

I think for Mormonism to admit past mistakes and beliefs…actually would be a more positive impact for them.

For the Catholic Church, it will never OK contraception or abortion, that human life begins at conception…

I speak for the Church in this way because most people – Mormons take note – leave the Catholic Church not over doctrine, but because they were hurt or personal issues.

Generally speaking, Catholics who leave, don’t do so because they think doctrines are ‘corrupt’

…if anything what you witness today is many considering themselves in good standing in the Catholic Church inspite of their own personal practices of contraception…not realizing in many cases they are aborting a human being at its earliest stages and depopulating their own future…Japan is already a dying country, France is seeing its population of natives plummet…

Ironically the industrial countries are the ones contracepting themselves into extinction, while the countries they targeted…the poor ones, especially of color, are still growing.
Click to expand...
Yes I have heard a lot leave over marriage issues.

On the other hand I have also heard of Catholics who contracept, very aware that it is wrong, go to Mass every Sunday, but don’t go up to receive communion.
 
Pepband_Mom said:
I’d like to know what Parker objects to in these “anti-mormon” sites: In particular, WHAT materials are off base?..
Click to expand...
Pepband Mom,

Here are comments I had recently posted that pertain to the issue you noted:
I personally would expect about a 25% eventual convert retention rate (meaning the convert stays active such that they attend the temple and continue to stay active or come back if they end up in a period of inactivity). This is what one comes up with statistically from the parable of the sower (from those where the seed actually sprouts), and from the parable of the ten virgins (ten somewhat valiant members of the church starting out with testimonies, but five don’t have reserve oil for their lamps because of whatever personal uncertainties they have). It is also paralleled in the Book of Mormon where members partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, when they don’t hold fast to the word of God continually and instead look at those mocking their beliefs and feel ashamed of them and go off on some other road.
Click to expand...
Even the “internet sifter” is paralleled in the Book of Mormon, where a group of once-members become those appointed to stand on “towers” giving out their own public messages (broadcasting them) to both try and dissuade “seekers” and to try and dissuade “members” (who are weak in their faith). So it becomes no surprise that these kinds of things are happening in our world today, as prophetically seen by the prophet Mormon as he decided what to include in compiling the Book of Mormon from the many years of records he selected to include as most pertinent to our day.
Click to expand...
The Old Testament also prophesied of this happening, in Malachi 3:17-18. John the Baptist saw that one of the Savior’s major missions is to “thoroughly purge his floor” (Matthew 3:12), and thoroughly means that He is going to be absolutely thorough.
Click to expand...
So then why would I object to websites and their questions that help complete the sifting process in behalf of the Savior’s work on the earth to “thoroughly purge his floor”? I don’t object to them, nor have I spent any time reading them, at all. (I have no idea who started or who runs whatever “anti” website.) When I have read questions brought up on this forum from time to time, and tried to respond and the person didn’t have the background to continue a conversation about their question, then it has become apparent that they used a question from some other source than their own personal study and thinking.

But people can spend time as their passion moves them to do, and if that means they become an “internet sifter” by purging out “luke-warm members”, then it is part of the work that the Lord prophesied through Isaiah and through Mormon and through John the Baptist would happen.

Since the post mentioned “intellectually dishonest”, then I suppose that a student of the Bible can assent that there are many examples in the Bible of those “joyful opposers” who felt they were being “intellectually honest” when they opposed Christ or His resurrection from the dead, opposed the apostles and the other early members, and in the Old Testament, opposed that Abraham was inspired, opposed that Moses was inspired, opposed Jeremiah and his prophecies, opposed that Noah was inspired, or opposed any other message or person that didn’t match their personal sensibilities and yet has later been “found out” to be inspired.

Being spiritually attuned to things that “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard”, means that personal sensibilities (i.e. intellectual reason) are definitely going to be at odds in some cases with what the Lord inspires. That is attested repeatedly in the Bible and in Biblical examples.
 
Sadly, Parker is still dodging me.

I know how hard it is to face the truth Brother Parker. I had to do it too. You can come home as I did. I would truly love the discussions we would have as you go thru RCIA
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top