JP II Society Pius X

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I have said this before to other people, now I’m saying it to you.

IF Vatican 11 is soooo bad, and IF the Popes are sssoo bad IF the NO is sooooo bad. IF the TLM is soooooo good…

Have faith that our Lord will straighten it out. I really think He can do it on His own… HE DOESN"T NEED OUR HELP

We cannot FORCE HIM, If it is to HIS displeasure, he will make it all right. We have to “endure till the end”.

“Forcing” never solved anything. only caused confusion. (Who’s the father of that?) confusion as we all are seeing here.

Have faith remove yourself AND Let God do His thing

(After all, look how we messed up the Garden of Eden…hehe)
 
=Auntie M;3637679]To all of you who believe that the “for many” is right and the "for all
is wrong.
Yes, in Matthews, it does say “for many”. But you cannot ignore the other scriptures that refers to the “all”.
As you can see, this “for many” is being taken as ONE verse and all the rest of the Bible has been ignored. If this is the case,
What else have you all been taught by only ONE verse?
The Vatican has admitted that the translation is WRONG. It will be changed to ‘for many’
The Council of Trent settled this over 500 years ago.
Catechism of the Council of Trent

“The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it **pertains not unto all, but to many **of the human race. When therefore ('our Lord) said: For you, He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, And for many, He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles.
With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, as in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle when he says: Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; and also of the words of our Lord in John: I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me, because they are thine.”
 
I have said this before to other people, now I’m saying it to you.

IF Vatican 11 is soooo bad, and IF the Popes are sssoo bad IF the NO is sooooo bad. IF the TLM is soooooo good…

Have faith that our Lord will straighten it out. I really think He can do it on His own… HE DOESN"T NEED OUR HELP

We cannot FORCE HIM, If it is to HIS displeasure, he will make it all right. We have to “endure till the end”.

“Forcing” never solved anything. only caused confusion. (Who’s the father of that?) confusion as we all are seeing here.

Have faith remove yourself AND Let God do His thing

(After all, look how we messed up the Garden of Eden…hehe)
Auntie

I believe that Church history supports what you have said. You cannot force faith or belief. Faith for belief by the sword does not work. It produces submission, not holiness.

JR 🙂
 
To the original poster, you can’t win this arguement.

These ultra-traditionalists are not going to come around nothing short of a miracle. I should know I used to be one.
 
To the original poster, you can’t win this arguement.

These ultra-traditionalists are not going to come around nothing short of a miracle. I should know I used to be one.
I believe that this argument on the part of the laity is really a waste of time. The laity can no more tell the Holy See what to do than we can tell the moon to go away.

Personally, the more productive thing for the laity to do is to learn how to love those on both sides of this issue. They are still persons, they are still sons and daughters of God and they still have human dignity. You can express your disagreemnt, but you should also express your love.

Disagreement without an expression of love is not disagreement, it’s criticism. Chriticism is not charity, it’s assault.

Those who disagree with the Holy Father’s decision, would be better off trying to understand his reasoning, how canon law works and the Pope’s authority on these matters. This is an opportunity for lay people to learn something about canon law and the Papacy.

As I have posted before, I encourage those who have not read the letter that went out with the Motu Proprio to read it. Pope Benedict mentions the the “Lefebvre movement” as he calls it. He says that there are deeper issues than traditionalism. He also makes a point of reminding the bishops that many have longed for the return of the Tridentine mass, but have remained faithful to the Church and he compares the Lefebvre movement to these faithful souls.

If you read this letter you can get a pretty clear idea that Pope Benedict is not about to lift the excommunication or is even considereing it.

This is a good opportunity for the laity to learn why this situation is so serious that one pope excommunicated the group and another pope is comparing them to those who remained faithful, but is not saying that he is going to lift the excommunication.

We the laity should leave the debate to Holy See where it belongs. We should take advantage of this opportunity to understand what both sides are saying and what the problem is.

What I’m seeing here is one side defending the SSPX and the other side arguing that the Pope excommunicated them. But no one is doing any teaching about the Church, canon law, the sacraments of Holy Orders and the Eucharist and ecclesiology which all enter into the picture.

Let’s not waste this opportunity to learn about these important aspects of the Christian faith.

JR 🙂
 
To all of you who believe that the “for many” is right and the "for all
is wrong.

Yes, in Matthews, it does say “for many”. But you cannot ignore the other scriptures that refers to the “all”. Please read Ex.24:8…the covenant which the Lord has made with YOU in accordance with all these words…(Does this MEAN only ONE person has a covenant with God"?) Don’t think so but that’s EXACTLY what the Bible states. Also, 1st Corrinthians 11:25…Cup of new covenant, As often as YOU drink it…There again, is this cup for only ONE person. the YOU as the Bible says. Also, in Lev. 16;15-16…blood atonement for sinful Iaraelites…OH NO are we to believe that the blood will ONLY atone for the Israelites?

As you can see, this “for many” is being taken as ONE verse and all the rest of the Bible has been ignored. If this is the case,
What else have you all been taught by only ONE verse?

I have heard the NO being called “a social club”. “that it no longer LOOKS Catholic” that the Eucharist is a “memorial Meal”.

I go to a NO and I haven’t see or heard anything like this. I wish that the SSPX would teach truths. I am sorry if I offend anyone, that is NOT my intentions, but the TRUTH will remain in the end. 🙂
The question is not that the rest of the Bible uses For ALL, but what where the words of Jesus at the Last Supper?

Thr Priest in Persona Chrsti must say the exact words that Jesus used in the Consecration. In that one verse Jesus said “For Many”.
The priest must use these exact words.

Jesus spoke “For Many” because he was talking about those who ACCEPTED his redemption.

Of coarse Jesus died For All as the Bible says many times because Jesus redeemed all. However, not eveyone accepts the redemption and they reject Christ. They are damned.

During the Last Supper, Jesus mentioned those who had the faith and works necessary for salvation.
The Sacrafice of the Mass must follow the words of Jesus at the Last Supper because there he instituted the Eucharist.
 
One would think that if the true purpose of the SSPX were to correct the way of the Church, that they would be trying to do more of that and less of saying ilicit Masses, holding confessions that do not absolve sins, etc.
 
The question is not that the rest of the Bible uses For ALL, but what where the words of Jesus?

Thr Priest in Persona Chrsti must say the exact words that Jesus used in the Consecration. In that one verse Jesus said “for Many”.
The priest must use these exact words.

Jesus spoke “For Many” because he was talking about those who ACCEPTED his redemption.

Of coarse Jesus died For ALL as the Bible says many times because Jesus redeemed all. However, not eveyone accepts the redemption and reject Christ. They are damned.

During the Last Supper, Jesus mentioned those who had faith and works and acception Jesus for salvation.
The Sacrafice of the Mass must follow the words of Jesus at the Last Supper because there he instituted the Eucharist.
But the Synoptic Gospels don’t agree. Matt says “for many” Luke says “for you”.

JR 🙂
 
But the Synoptic Gospels don’t agree. Matt says “for many” Luke says “for you”.

JR 🙂
Once again from the Catechism of Trent authorized by Saint Pope Pius V

"The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but **to many **of the human race. "
 
Bishop Fellay, Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), picked up on something in the letter of Pope Benedict XVI to the bishops which accompanied the Motu Proprio…

The pope first mentions the Society:

We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity.

The pope then goes on to state later in the letter:

I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church.

There it is. The pope here is obviously not talking about the Indult communities since they are in “full” communion with Rome. He is talking about the SSPX. He admits that there needs to be a reconciliation, but that it is a reconciliation that needs to take place interiorly in the heart of the Church. This statement confirms Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos’ public statements over the last several months that the SSPX is not in formal schism.

ecclesia-militans.blogspot.com/2007/07/pope-implicitly-admits-sspx-not-outside.html

I hope Pope Benedict lifts the ex-communications and cleans up Pope JP II’s mess.
 
For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it** pertains not unto all,** but **to many **of the human race. "
Excellent presentation. Both terms have are correct depending on the context. Redemption was done for all. Due to the rejection of this redemption, it only bears fruit for many. Since Mass is the re-presentation of Calvary, if both ever existed in any way at that sacrifice, then both can exist in some form at Mass.
 
Once again from the Catechism of Trent authorized by Saint Pope Pius V

"The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but **to many **of the human race. "
St. Maria

I understand what the Catechism of Trent did. I was making a point regarding the Synoptic Gospels.

I can even tell you why the authors of the Catechism Trent reach this compromise. But the why is not the issue.

The issue is very simple. First, the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine which was created to work on and teach the Catechism of Trent had difficulty with the exegetical and eschatological contents of the scriptures.

Whilel Biblical eschatology emphasized that Christ has died for all, biblical exegesis made reference to “many” in Matt and Mk and to “you” in Lk, and John’s Gospel which is eschatalogical doesn’t even mention it.

The question arose, which way to go, through the exegetical or the eschatalogical route. It was decided to use the words of the scriptures by combining the words from the three synoptic gospels (MT, Mk, and Lk) for the words of consecration, but to use John’s eschatology for the Eucharistic prayer.

The reason for this agreement was to display the unity of the gospels in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. That was the idea of a final gospel reading at the end of the mass, to show the unity between the sacrament and the word or better said, to show that the sacrament if framed by the Word of God.

It was also their intention to show that the Salvation of Jesus was for all, but that not all would be open to receive it. In reality, many would benefit from the universal gift of redemption, not because redemption was for some and not others, but because of human choice.

The reason why Lk uses “for you” instead of “for many” had to do with Lucan theology. Luke was writing for the Greeks. He wanted to ensure the Greeks that Christ’s ministry was for them as well as for the Jews. Remember, Luke was not a Jew. “The many” could be misconstrued that Christ’s saving act and the Eucharist was for the Jews. At the time of Luke’s writing there was a conflict in the Church as to whether or not the Gentiles were included in Christ’s redemptive work. Even though Paul and the Apostles had settled it, the laity was still uncomfortable with their resolution.

Non Jewish Christians still felt they were second class members of the Church. Luke wants to emphasize that they were in fact in the mind of Christ. Luke received this teaching from Paul who preached that Christ has come to save all people and that there were no longer Jews and Gentiles, but only sons and daughters of the same Father.

The Catechism of Trent reflected the thinking of the mind of the theologians who pulled all of this together. They couldn’t put every argument into the catechism. What you have cited above is a summary statement of many years of dialogue between biblical exegites and systematic theologians.

JR 🙂
 
The reason why Lk uses “for you” instead of “for many” had to do with Lucan theology. Luke was writing for the Greeks. He wanted to ensure the Greeks that Christ’s ministry was for them as well as for the Jews. Remember, Luke was not a Jew. “The many” could be misconstrued that Christ’s saving act and the Eucharist was for the Jews. At the time of Luke’s writing there was a conflict in the Church as to whether or not the Gentiles were included in Christ’s redemptive work. Even though Paul and the Apostles had settled it, the laity was still uncomfortable with their resolution.

Non Jewish Christians still felt they were second class members of the Church. Luke wants to emphasize that they were in fact in the mind of Christ. Luke received this teaching from Paul who preached that Christ has come to save all people and that there were no longer Jews and Gentiles, but only sons and daughters of the same Father.
JR 🙂
Are you saying that Jesus did not speak those words?

Luke wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What Luke wrote was historical. Luke recorded the words of Jesus. That is as simple as it gets.

I would advise you stay away from the heretical Biblical Exegesis that is around the Church right now. Modernists have pretty much destroyed the faith with their Biblical nonsense.
 
Bishop Fellay, Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), picked up on something in the letter of Pope Benedict XVI to the bishops which accompanied the Motu Proprio…

The pope first mentions the Society:

We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity.

The pope then goes on to state later in the letter:

I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church.

There it is. The pope here is obviously not talking about the Indult communities since they are in “full” communion with Rome. He is talking about the SSPX. He admits that there needs to be a reconciliation, but that it is a reconciliation that needs to take place interiorly in the heart of the Church. This statement confirms Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos’ public statements over the last several months that the SSPX is not in formal schism.

ecclesia-militans.blogspot.com/2007/07/pope-implicitly-admits-sspx-not-outside.html

I hope Pope Benedict lifts the ex-communications and cleans up Pope JP II’s mess.
We must pay special attention to the letter that the Holy Father sent to the Bishops. This paragraph is part of this letter.

We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.

He is making two important statements.
  1. He’s not buying into the idea that the liturgy was the only issue behind the Lefebvre movement.
  2. He acknowledges that the 1962 missal was not the problem, but the interpretations and liberties that people took with it.
**Pope John Paul II thus felt obliged to provide, in his Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei (2 July 1988), guidelines for the use of the 1962 Missal; that document, however, did not contain detailed prescriptions but appealed in a general way to the generous response of Bishops towards the “legitimate aspirations” of those members of the faithful who requested this usage of the Roman Rite. At the time, the Pope primarily wanted to assist the Society of Saint Pius X to recover full unity with the Successor of Peter, and sought to heal a wound experienced ever more painfully. **

He does not place the fault of the abuses at the feet of John Paul II as many would like to do. In fact he recognizes that John Paul tried to heal the rift.

He also recognizes that John Paul’s Motu Proprio hoped that the Bishops would respond to the situation in their dioces. Benedict admits that this did not happen.

The fact that this did not happen is not a moral fault of John Paul II. It seems more that many people didn’t quite understand what John Paul wanted or they made little or no effort. That is not John Paul’s fault.

JR 🙂
 
Are you saying that Jesus did not speak those words?

Luke wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What Luke wrote was historical. Luke recorded the words of Jesus. That is as simple as it gets.

I would advise you stay away from the heretical Biblical Exegesis that is around the Church right now. Modernists have pretty much destroyed the faith with their Biblical nonsense.
I’m saying that the synoptic gospels don’t coincide in the words. They don’t coincide in several things, not just this.

There is a difference between historical truth and literal truth.

By the way, I suggest that you mind your manners. You have no idea who I am, what I do for a living or what I know about theology. You are assuming that I am involved in heretical exegesis.

What authority do you have to call something heretical exegesis?

What authority do you have to assume that I’m involved or contaminated by heretical exegesis?

What authority do you have over me?

I work for my bishop, not you.

Keep your opinions about me to yourself and stick to the point on the table.

thanks

JR 🙂
 
He is making two important statements.
  1. He’s not buying into the idea that the liturgy was the only issue behind the Lefebvre movement.
  2. He acknowledges that the 1962 missal was not the problem, but the interpretations and liberties that people took with it.
JR 🙂
  1. Of Coarse he knows that the liturgy alone is not the problem. The SSPX want a dialogue on Vatican II and all the doctrinal confusion in the Church. Given that the Church dialogues with false religions for years without getting nowhere, 😃 they should seriously listen to the SSPX.
  2. Pope Benedict is not talikng about the '62 Missal. He is talking about the Missal of Paul VI. The Missal of the New Mass, which people took liberties with and introduced abuses.
 
I’m saying that the synoptic gospels don’t coincide in the words. They don’t coincide in several things, not just this.
I was just afaid that you may have become victim to bad theology in regards to the Bible.
The Four Gospels were written by four different men and with four different perspectives. They will not be word for word. However, they were guided by the Holy Spirit and there are no errors or contradictions in them. They are to be taken as a whole. Mathew and Luke recorded the words Jesus used. He used both words. Therefore there is no contradiction as Trent has defined.
There is a difference between historical truth and literal truth.
JR 🙂
There is no difference in regards to the Gospels.
Do you not believe that the Gospels were literal and historical?
 
  1. Of Coarse he knows that the liturgy alone is not the problem. The SSPX want a dialogue on Vatican II and all the doctrinal confusion in the Church. Given that the Church dialogues with false religions for years without getting nowhere, 😃 they should seriously listen to the SSPX.
  2. Pope Benedict is not talikng about the '62 Missal. He is talking about the Missal of Paul VI. The Missal of the New Mass, which people took liberties with and introduced abuses.
Sorry, you’re right. He was talking about the Pauline missal. I was trying to type quickly and think faster.

I’m sure that he would be willing to dialogue with them, if they first agree to submit to his authority, not just acknowledge it. I don’t know him pesonally. I met him once for about five minutes. That’s it, and I was in a group of about 50. But I get the impression that he is not a man who is open to those who challenge authority. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.

JR 🙂
 
I was just afaid that you may have become victim to bad theology in regards to the Bible.
The Four Gospels were written by four different men and with four different perspectives. They will not be word for word. However, they were guided by the Holy Spirit and there are no errors or contradictions in them. They are to be taken as a whole. Mathew and Luke recorded the words Jesus used. He used both words. Therefore there is no contradiction as Trent has defined.

There is no difference in regards to the Gospels.
Do you not believe that the Gospels were literal and historical?
The Church itself makes the difference between historical and literal truth. It’s a tricky concept, but it actually works. If you want to PM me, I’ll explain it. It would take long and derail the thread.

JR 🙂
 
The Heretical Exegesis I am refering to is the heresy that the New Testament is not literal and historical. That there are no miracles in the Gospels, that the Gospels contain myths, fantasy, literary devices, and other modernist garbage. They would also dare to say that the words of Jesus are not his words.

That the writers were not the apostles, and that the people who wrote the Gospels are time bound and culture bound. That the evangelists wrote the way they did because of their culture and time in which they lived.

It is that kind of nonsense that has destroyed the faith of Millions and has hurt the Church. Not to mention that the Word of God in the Bible has been destroyed and ridiculed by modern exegesis.
 
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