E
Eden
Guest
Well, the Mormons don’t see it that way… Just putting their understanding of apostasy to the test.
- Status
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
I think all these pseudo-churches were right when they prophesied about these great apostasies. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to grasp the fact that they themselves are the fulfilment of their own prophecies.
In other words, the very things they warned others about were the very things that happened to themselves.
Then again, the Holy Spirit did warn them exactly what would happen when they falsely prophesied in the name of God…
Revelation 22:18:
…so when they rebelled against God’s will, they indirectly fulfilled the very things they were claiming about the Catholic faith. There is no escaping God’s will on these matters.
Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies of the grandest scale.
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
I think you still have to answer the question of why Abraham was circumsized even though he already had faith.
I also think you need to answer why little children could be circumcised even though they didn’t have faith.
And I think you need to answer why baptism is not linked with circumcision in Christian theology even though the Christian Scriptures theologically link the two together.
Once you’ve answered these questions, then I think we can go into the direction of discussing the dead being baptized.
Z
Zooey
Guest
I live near Palmyra, where Joseph Smith started the Mormons, & around here, we say, thehttp://bestsmileys.com/wink/2.gif Angel Macaroni.http://bestsmileys.com/wink/2.gif
Not like the food! In Smith’s day, as in Revolutionary times, “macaroni” meant “spiffy”. Like, you know, “put a feather in his hat, & called it macaroni”.
**Cool!!!
**
P
PaulDupre
Guest
You won’t get a sound answer to your excellent question, because Mormons don’t believe in the bible. They teach that it is hopelessly corrupted and unreliable as a standard for doctrine. Mormons only use the bible to deceive the poorly catechised, citing the few verses of the bible that they can twist to support the non-Christian teachings of Joseph Smith.
So sad,
Paul
K
Karin
Guest
Oh I like that “macaroni”…have to remember thatI live near Palmyra, where Joseph Smith started the Mormons, & around here, we say, thehttp://bestsmileys.com/wink/2.gif Angel Macaroni.http://bestsmileys.com/wink/2.gif
Not like the food! In Smith’s day, as in Revolutionary times, “macaroni” meant “spiffy”. Like, you know, “put a feather in his hat, & called it macaroni”.
**Cool!!!
K
Karin
Guest
Paul thanks for the insight…I was wondering since they state the Bible is corrupt or incomplete why the lds keep using Bible scripture in answers…wouldnt it be better if they used a source that they believed was not corrupt or incomplete such as the BoM?
V
Valke2
Guest
Covenants in biblical times (contracts) required a public declaration between the parties or something physical to let the world know there was an agreement. WHen Abraham bargains for land in order to bury Sarah, he does so before a large group of people and in a highly formal way.
Similarly, the bris (circumcision) is the public declaration/act that goes with the eternal covenant between God and the Jews. The act is an obligation of the parent and not the baby. So the child’s state of mind/grace etc. is not relevant.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
Similarly, the bris (circumcision) is the public declaration/act that goes with the eternal covenant between God and the Jews. The act is an obligation of the parent and not the baby. So the child’s state of mind/grace etc. is not relevant.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Exactly.
And the same is true with the belief in baptism when applied to a child. The sacrament of baptism is the sacerdotal act that goes with the eternal covenant between God and the Chritianity.
Within a Christian context, the proclomation that the parents will raise the child in the faith, setting them apart for God, goes hand in hand with the belief that God infuses grace to the child in the process, effectively removing the stains of original sin even though the concupiscense to sin is not.
Concupiscense is the name for the rebellious desire, lust, and the 'inclination to evil," born into every man that comes into the world, due to the effects of original sin. And while Judaism may not agree with Catholic doctrine on this regard, it is clear that Judaism does agree with Catholicism that there is nothing wrong with placing these children under God’s Covenant by proxy of the parents/gaurdians of the child.
In Judiasm, the children’s faith are later confirmed in thier bar mitzvah, literally meaning “son of the commandment”-- or the equivalent for girls. In Christianity, both girls and boys are later confirmed in the faith through the sacrament of confirmation, having the effect of a special spiritual awakening and granting the initiate the chance to reaffirm their membership in the Church and to say their own “I do” to their baptismal promises made by proxy through their parents/gaurdians long ago.
Whether we’re talking about Jewish or Christian concepts, it is clear that in both cases these children are effectively coming of age within their faith, formally sealing their willingness to study their faith further along with the corresponding right to take part in religious services.
This seems like a no-brainer to me. But, alas, I suppose someone, somewhere, somehow will find yet another obscure, inane and stupid reason to argue with this wisdom. Seems fairly self-evident to me-- leading the chidren into God’s Covenant near birth and allowing them to later confirm the promise held by their parents when these children come of age is good common sense.
V
Valke2
Guest
We call it the Yetzer Hara.
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Cool.
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Karin, don’t tell Majick275 or PaulDupree but you’re definitely my favourite LDS critic. That was hilarious. And another delightful smiley!It would seem that the LDS has also baptised HITLER…wonder if he is a God yet
K
Karin
Guest
yeah aint it grand you guys baptise Hitler when he is dead…next you guys will make him a prophet…but I wonder ** is he a God yet**???
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Karin, I know you’d like an answer but first I want you to tell you that I am jealous that you gave zerinus 4 eek-smileys. What can I do to be the foremost rabid Mormon in your heart?
I didn’t think you were really serious about anyone baptizing Hitler. I think that would prety much be a waste of time. The way Mormon theology goes, baptism is an ordinance that must be performed in this life and on the other side of the veil, a person may accept or decline.
I can understand how some people can take offense at well-meaning Mormons baptizing people they admire who passed from this life. They have been counseled to submit the names of only family members. In the case of no direct family relation, permission may be granted from family members. That might have been the case with JPII, I really don’t know.
Some people do not appreciate their kin being baptised on behalf of the dead because it infers that their own church’s baptism is not good enough, I understand that. But their beef should be with their own family members who either gave permission or submitted their names themselves.
K
Karin
Guest
foremost rabid mormon? No I just found his statements to be worthy of a few
…I am sure sooner or later your typical LDS comments will warrant a few of them tooI totally agree it is a waste of time to baptise a dead person…but the LDS cult is very fond of this practice and has baptized Hitler…so it would seem that someone was pretty serious and did not think it a waste of time
so you are saying that some LDS person admired Hitler
…that is really scary! What pray tell did they admire about him…the gassing and killing of millions of people? OR was it his stance on vegetarianism?JPII has no living family members…this was shown to you guys already on this thread by another poster…
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Normally I don’t reply to angry rants like this but you are my favourite and it was handsomely decorated with a variety smileys which I do have a weakness for,
Karin, you should try to mend this hardness of heart you have towards Mormons. I only say this because I believe that there’s a chance with you. Seek forgiveness and be generous granting it. Even if you think we are your enemies, pray that you might love your enemies. You’ll feel it heal your heart.
As I said, if you disagree with the names that have been submitted for baptism for the dead, you have a beef with whoever granted permission on that person’s behalf or the individual who took it upon themselves to disregard the counsel they are given. Names being submitted are given only a cursosry review and that mostly for genealogical correctness. To review each of them for permission would serious impede a work which we take seriously.
Karin, you should try to mend this hardness of heart you have towards Mormons. I only say this because I believe that there’s a chance with you. Seek forgiveness and be generous granting it. Even if you think we are your enemies, pray that you might love your enemies. You’ll feel it heal your heart.
As I said, if you disagree with the names that have been submitted for baptism for the dead, you have a beef with whoever granted permission on that person’s behalf or the individual who took it upon themselves to disregard the counsel they are given. Names being submitted are given only a cursosry review and that mostly for genealogical correctness. To review each of them for permission would serious impede a work which we take seriously.
K
Karin
Guest
angry rants??? I aksed a specific question you answered and I questioned your answers…WHOA you guys are sensitive when your answers are questioned!
Harndess of heart toward Mormons
…nah I just am not stupid enough to fall for your (LDS) lies/unturths and messages from someone other than God. Perhaps you should heed your own suggestions…seek forgivness for following a path that has lead you further from God…even your enemies (anyone that is not LDS) pray that you see the light and error of your ways!Ahh…so the LDS could care less if actual family members give consent for these baptisms?..that is what you are saying.
You would think that you would want to make sure that what you are doing is allowed by the family…
Lets try to stay on topic here ok? I do know that “Z” has issues with this I hope it is not a common thing among the LDS.
You still have left a question unanswered from my previous post…You stated
WHAT could some Mormon of admired about Hitler?
R
rmcmullan
Guest
I am going to grant you some leniency in your claim. I will assume you have looked up Adolf Hitler’s genealogy in the LDS FH DB which is online and that it clearly states that his temple ordinances were performed. It will usually also state who by and I suggest you get in contact with the submitter and ask them. If you have some trouble getting the submitters name, I would refer you to your local Family History Center, usually inside your local Mormon Stake Center. You may want to put a pack of cigarettes and bottle of gin in your purse to ward off the regular Mormons you might encounter there.
K
Karin
Guest
you are STILL avoiding the question to your response…
WHAT DID THE MORMONS FINDS ADMIRABLE ABOUT HITLER TO BAPTISE HIM BY PROXY?
The person that submitted his name is dead by the way…I just can not fathom WHAT THEY FOUND ADMIRABLE about Hitler?!? KAARE INGMAR BYE submitted the name and passed away in 2000…also based on this persons geneaolgy I see no family connection to Hitler.
Thank you for the suggestion about the Local Steak Center…but I really have no desire to visit anything related to the LDS.
…but if I did I would take my CUP OF HOT COFEE and magic underwear- Status