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zerinus
Guest
Actually, he does “approve”. He uses that custom to prove the truth of the doctrine of the resurrection. It would seem odd to say the least to use a false doctrine to prove the validity of a true one.
zerinus
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zerinus
Z
zerinus
Guest
Well, they wouldn’t have been baptized if thay had already been Mormons, would they!
zerinus
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Sixtus
Guest
My dear Flameburn, the Catholic Church regularly prays for the leaders of ALL denominations and bids the faithful to do so.
We pray for you at every mass. Do you pray for us?
S
Sixtus
Guest
My Dear Flameburn,
Reading your posts, I have come to realise that you are a little tinker. I do enjoy a windup [in fun] myself, though not about matters of religion as that is too dear to people’s hearts.
But I have observed you to turn tradition around on its head so that the authority becomes ‘the margins’ and 'the margins become the authority. That is actually very clever. I would not have thought of that myself. But, as I have already acknowledged, you are a very informed and clever individual.
But, I have learned to my cost, that when one jokes such a lot, others soon ‘twig’. Then they do not take serious when one DOES have somthing meaningful to say, as folk think it is just another wind-up.
Reading your posts, I have come to realise that you are a little tinker. I do enjoy a windup [in fun] myself, though not about matters of religion as that is too dear to people’s hearts.
But I have observed you to turn tradition around on its head so that the authority becomes ‘the margins’ and 'the margins become the authority. That is actually very clever. I would not have thought of that myself. But, as I have already acknowledged, you are a very informed and clever individual.
But, I have learned to my cost, that when one jokes such a lot, others soon ‘twig’. Then they do not take serious when one DOES have somthing meaningful to say, as folk think it is just another wind-up.
E
Eden
Guest
I looked up Mr. Harold B. Lee and found that he died in 1973. Pope John Paul II was not Pope until 1978. The Pope in 1973 was Pope Paul VI. I have no idea what the connection between Mr. Lee, his wife and Pope Paul VI would be or why it would be relevant to this discussion.
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Karin
Guest
it has nothing to do with the topic…but some folks like to throw things in now and then to derail or shift the focus of the thread away from something.
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zerinus
Guest
The relevance was in the last paragraph in post that I was replying to. The paragraph was as follows:
I should have thought that if the Pope was courteous enough to send the widow of the president of the LDS Church a letter of condolence after he had died, knowing full well their practice of baptizing for the dead, that he wouldn’t be “turning in his grave” should they baptize him by proxy after he was dead. Makes sense, no?
zerinus
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Eden
Guest
Not only does baptism of the dead not appear in The *Book of Mormon, *the book makes it clear that those who die as non-Mormons go to hell, period:
“For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.” (Alma 34: 35-36)
This definitely does not leave open the possibility of a later, vicarious admission into the Mormon church.
And again:
“And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.”
So, even the Book of Mormon agrees that those who baptise by proxy are wasting their time.
catholic.com/library/mormonism_baptism_for_the_dead.asp
watchman.org/lds/baptdead.htm
“For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.” (Alma 34: 35-36)
This definitely does not leave open the possibility of a later, vicarious admission into the Mormon church.
And again:
“And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.”
So, even the Book of Mormon agrees that those who baptise by proxy are wasting their time.
catholic.com/library/mormonism_baptism_for_the_dead.asp
watchman.org/lds/baptdead.htm
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Karin
Guest
No…makes no sense!
And why baptise someone that **ALREADY **has been Baptised?
Or did you guys think that a condolonce letter was an ok to go ahead and baptise him when he was dead…why not baptise him when he was alive??
A
Anima_Christi
Guest
Who cares? Are the souls of those who died in the “Shoah” at all harmed by the Mormons “baptizing” them?
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zerinus
Guest
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Eden
Guest
But now that we know that Pope John Paul II did not send a letter of condolence to Harold B. Lee’s wife, the possible existence of a mystery letter sent to a Mormon widow by an earlier Pope is not an argument against PJPII turning in his grave at the thought of a Mormon baptism by proxy, no?
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Valke2
Guest
The memories of those that were murdered are tarnished. The families of those who died in the Shoah don’t need to deal the the baptizing of their dead. It is an attempt to belittle our religon. Never mind the insult of doing the same thing with Hitler.
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zerinus
Guest
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Karin
Guest
what are you talking about…she is talking about what the OP posted on…YOU CHANGED the topic when you mentioned a letter of condolence
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Eden
Guest
How is it changing the subject to illustrate that even *The Book of Mormon *agrees that the baptism by proxy of JPII was a waste of time?
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Karin
Guest
And **YOU **once again can not answer a question posed to you
- Why baptise a dead person by proxy, if in the case of JPII he was already baptised?
- Did you think some condolonce letter was his way of asking you guys (LDS) to baptise him when he was dead? Or that it showed approval of the LDS practice of baptism of the dead?
- Why wait till he was dead to baptise him…why not baptise him when he was alive?
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zerinus
Guest
Because we do not recognize the authority of his baptism.And **YOU **once again can not answer a question posed to you
- Why baptise a dead person by proxy, if in the case of JPII he was already baptised?
No; it was my way of saying that he is unlikely to be “turning in his grave” for being baptized.
Because baptism by proxy is only performed only on behalf of the dead, not the living. When he was alive he would have had to request us to baptize him, and he hadn’t.
zerinus
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Karin
Guest
So I make sense now “Z”
so why is his Catholic baptism not valid?
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scriabin
Guest
1 Corinthians 15:29 —
“Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?”
There *was *a practice of baptizing for the dead at the time of the apostles. From the context of the passage Paul is actually saying the practice is efficacious.
I don’t know what the Church states on this matter. Anybody know?
“Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?”
There *was *a practice of baptizing for the dead at the time of the apostles. From the context of the passage Paul is actually saying the practice is efficacious.
I don’t know what the Church states on this matter. Anybody know?
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