JPII now baptised by proxy by LDS

[zerinus]

So I make sense now “Z”

Actually, you don’t! But I will answer you anyway!

so why is his Catholic baptism not valid?

Because we believe that the early Christian church apostatized and lost the priesthood and the divine authority it had, which includes the authority to baptize.

is it not true that for mormons to batpise the dead by proxy, the person wanting the baptism has to be an immediate family member?

Two answers to that. Firstly, names can be submitted for baptism for people who are not family members (or distant relatives); but that is discouraged. Secondly, how do you know that those submitting the name of JP2 had not been related to him in some way?

zerinus

 

[Karin]

I don’t know what the Church states on this matter. Anybody know?

ewtn.com/library/answers/camorm2.htm

 

[Karin]

Actually, you don’t! But I will answer you anyway!

LOL!!! if I made no sense Z you would not be answering me…good try though…
z:

Because we believe that the early Christian church apostatized and lost the priesthood and the divine authority it had, which includes the authority to baptize.

an even BIGGER LOL!
z:

Two answers to that. Firstly, names can be submitted for baptism for people who are not family members (or distant relatives); but that is discouraged.

Yes it is discouraged…you upset too many folks doing that namly the Jews
z:

Secondly, how do you know that those submitting the name of JP2 had not been related to him in some way?

zerinus

what Catholic relative of the Pope in his or her right mind would even think of doing this? NONE!!
I have a feeling that some mormon took it upon themselves to do this with out a family members consent.

 

[zerinus]

I have a feeling that some mormon took it upon themselves to do this with out a family members consent.

You do not know that that is the case, and neither do I. JP2 was Polish, and the LDS Church has many members in Poland, and it is growing. It is perfectly possible that some Polish LDS member related to him had submitted his name for baptism.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

You do not know that that is the case, and neither do I. JP2 was Polish, and the LDS Church has many members in Poland, and it is growing. It is perfectly possible that some Polish LDS member related to him had submitted his name for baptism.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

RESPONSE* TO A ‘DUBIUM’*
on the validity of baptism conferred by
«The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints»,called «Mormons»

Question***:*** Wheter the baptism conferred by the community «The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints», called «Mormons» in the vernacular, is valid.
Response: Negative.
The Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved the present Response, decided in the Sessione Ordinaria of this Congregation, and ordered it published.

From the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 5 June 2001.

 

[cestusdei]

Mormons say they respect families. I seriously doubt the Polish Catholic family of JPII would have submitted his name. This act is an attempt, albeit futile, to acquire his soul. If they want to just pray for the dead I would have no objection. But this is more then that. They have been asked by Jews to not do this, but Mormons do it anyway.

I checked and found that my grandfather was baptized in the same fashion. NONE of us in the family requested it. I am extremely angry about this. Mormons have no respect for our dead. I am sorely tempted to write and threaten legal action against the lds church.

 

[cestusdei]

1 Corinthians 15:29 —

“Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?”

There *was *a practice of baptizing for the dead at the time of the apostles. From the context of the passage Paul is actually saying the practice is efficacious.

I don’t know what the Church states on this matter. Anybody know?

No one knows much. The Corinthian church had many problems. Paul had to write them frequently. Apparently some of them did this and Paul used it as a springboard. It wasn’t done elsewhere that we know of and it died out in Corinth. Paul doesn’t approve of it or ask that it be spread elsewhere. The Corinthians also spoke in tongues, do Mormons? No, in fact they absolutely discourage it. So, there is a Corinthian practice that Mormons do not imitate.

 

[Damascus]

I wonder if they did this with Edith Stien? Talk about a double whammy.

 

[Eden]

Mormons say they respect families. I seriously doubt the Polish Catholic family of JPII would have submitted his name. This act is an attempt, albeit futile, to acquire his soul. If they want to just pray for the dead I would have no objection. But this is more then that. They have been asked by Jews to not do this, but Mormons do it anyway.

I checked and found that my grandfather was baptized in the same fashion. NONE of us in the family requested it. I am extremely angry about this. Mormons have no respect for our dead. I am sorely tempted to write and threaten legal action against the lds church.

I have a lot of family members who were “baptised”, too (ironically, they are people who lived in the 17th-19th centuries before Joseph Smith even invented this religion). The temple listed in the genealogical information is always “Slake”. They seem to do a lot of business there at Slake. I find it very annoying and have no idea who submitted their names. Another reason I find the Mormon genealogy files to be annoying, is that they are required to do a family tree and a lot of the people just get sloppy. They often submit poorly researched information just to fulfill their requirements, often connecting branches that are completely wrong because someone had a common name, which just puts out total misinformation into the genealogical circles.

But about JPII, by the time he was 21 all of his immediate family had had died. It was a well-known fact that he was “alone in the world” after the death of his father. He does not have any close living relatives, let alone Mormon ones who would have requested such a baptism.

 

[dosdog]

No one knows much. The Corinthian church had many problems. Paul had to write them frequently. Apparently some of them did this and Paul used it as a springboard. It wasn’t done elsewhere that we know of and it died out in Corinth. Paul doesn’t approve of it or ask that it be spread elsewhere. The Corinthians also spoke in tongues, do Mormons? No, in fact they absolutely discourage it. So, there is a Corinthian practice that Mormons do not imitate.

Corinthians -Historically, this passage has been the source of much speculation and some confusion. One second century sect, the Cataphrygians (Montanists), seem to have developed the practice of baptizing actual corpses based on a misunderstanding of this verse (see Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, edited by Walter A. Elwell, p. 119).

In order to understand this or any other Biblical passage, it is important to examine the context to understand what is being talked about.

The entire fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians deals with the resurrection. False teachers had infiltrated the church at Corinth, teaching “that there is no resurrection of the dead,” (vs. 13).

Tertullian refers to the practice of those who “were vainly baptized for the dead” (Against Marcion, 5.10). But observe that even he characterizes the practice as vain.

It is a Vile Pagan Practice and needs to be condemned along with anyone who performs it

 

[zerinus]

Is that the best that you can do?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

RESPONSE* TO A ‘DUBIUM’*
on the validity of baptism conferred by
«The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints»,called «Mormons»

Question***:*** Wheter the baptism conferred by the community «The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints», called «Mormons» in the vernacular, is valid.
Response: Negative.
The Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved the present Response, decided in the Sessione Ordinaria of this Congregation, and ordered it published.

From the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 5 June 2001.

The Catholic Church is apostate anyway, to their ‘DUBIUM’ is as meaningless as their “baptism” is.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

I wonder if they did this with Edith Stien? Talk about a double whammy.

It would seem that they have baptised her by proxy
SOURCE

 

[Karin]

"Z:

You do not know that that is the case, and neither do I. JP2 was Polish, and the LDS Church has many members in Poland, and it is growing. It is perfectly possible that some Polish LDS member related to him had submitted his name for baptism.

zerinus

Is that the best that you can do?

zerinus

Is that the best you can do Z …it would seem that Eden has proven your thought about some random Polish LDS relative of JPII WRONG!!!

But about JPII, by the time he was 21 all of his immediate family had had died. It was a well-known fact that he was “alone in the world” after the death of his father. He does not have any close living relatives, let alone Mormon ones who would have requested such a baptism

 

[Karin]

The Catholic Church is apostate anyway, to their ‘DUBIUM’ is as meaningless as their “baptism” is.

zerinus

Did we hit a nerve there Z?
I think you meant to say that the mormon cult is in “apostate”

 

[Karin]

The Catholic Church is apostate anyway, to their ‘DUBIUM’ is as meaningless as their “baptism” is.

zerinus

also if JPII did not believe in your baptisms (as seen above) **why **would you guys baptise him by proxy???

 

[Anima_Christi]

The memories of those that were murdered are tarnished. The families of those who died in the Shoah don’t need to deal the the baptizing of their dead. It is an attempt to belittle our religon. Never mind the insult of doing the same thing with Hitler.

How so? (BTW, a lot of non-Jews were also killed in the “Shoah”). The Mormons aren’t baptizing your dead to insult your religion. They baptize the dead from any religion. Why not let them practice their religious beliefs?
Mormons baptizing the dead is akin to Catholics offering Masses for the dead.

 

[Damascus]

I am not too familiar with catholics that take it upon themselves to have Masses said for family members that view the Catholic Church as invalid. Or as they falsely contend: apostate. LOL.

Of course, That would only be because as Catholics, we use Reason with our faith. And this, is so far from reasonable it follows that we just dont do this, nor understand it or desire any part of it.

 

[Damascus]

But, once again I maintain it is a futile meaningless thing they are doing.
They can call it what they wish, but its not a valid ritual they are preforming here. It can change nothing for a Catholic or Jew or many others. It is only annoying. It does not mean anything took place that effects us. They dont have the power to bind and loose (this is my viewpoint) they do not use the proper formula and they are heretics to boot. Its no threat to us or our loved ones. Its just another example of the lunacy of cults.