JPII now baptised by proxy by LDS

[dosdog]

OH no, someone call the ADL!
Seriously, Valke, get over it. The Mormons shouldn’t have to change their religious practices to appease the Jews…if we Catholicshad changed our religious practices to appease you, you people would not have crucified Jesus and killed His Apostles. Your Talmud insults Christ and Mary but I don’t the Catholic League going after you and I don’t see you rewriting your Talmud to appease Christians.

I don’t want to give the impression that the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead is doctrinally OK, I’m just sick of Jews using the Holocaust to push everyone around. If the state of Israel is going to make the Mormons change their practice of baptizing the dead so they can have religious freedom their, the state of Utah ought to at least put some restrictions on the practice of Judaism.

what exactly is your point -
A Letter is Sent to the Mormon Church
Given the negative reaction by Mayfield to my protest a year earlier, I decided that a person higher on the ladder had to be contacted and made the decision to write to the elder of the Church who was in charge of the Family History Department, J. Richard Clarke. I called Rabbi Malcolm H. Stern to make him aware of the Gedenkbuch extraction and my plans to write to Elder Clarke. Rabbi Stern was dismayed at the Mormon’s actions and agreed that a letter should be written. Prior to sending the letter, I showed it to Rabbi Stern who approved of its contents. The now-famous letter, which was published in the Spring 1994 issue of AVOTAYNU, nine months after it was sent to Clarke, stated:
Dear Elder Clarke:

It has come to my attention that well-intentioned LDS members are baptizing Jewish victims of the Holocaust into the Mormon faith. It shows incredible insensitivity to the anguish of the living relatives of these martyrs, some of whom saw their loved ones murdered, to perform a Christian ritual on people who were killed for only one reason; they were Jews.

Baptism is a Christian ceremony that is particularly repugnant to Jews. It reminds us of the centuries of persecution against Jews where our ancestors were given a choice; be baptized or suffer death. There are many Christians living today who can trace their family history back to people who chose option one. Our Jewish history books are filled with martyrs who chose option two.

Postscript. Starting in about 2000 activist researchers claimed that the LDS Church was not honoring its commitment to the Jews, for they continued posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims and others.
Investigation by me verified that information. I notified Michel who evaluated the evidence and he
agreed with the conclusion. Since 2004, Michel has had a dialogue with the Church but the matter is
still unresolved as of the summer of 2006.

by Gary Mokotoff
Reprinted from the Summer 1995 issue of AVOTAYNU
Copyright 1995, Avotaynu, Inc.

 

[Karin]

And let me state for you that if you reject Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God, and the divine messege he received from God, and do not repent of it in this life, you will be damned.

zerinus

I REJECT THE MAN JOSEPH SMITH, HE IS NOT A PROPHET OF GOD, HE IS NOT A MAN OF GOD, HE RECIEVED NO DIVINE MESSAGE FROM GOD THE ONLY THING HE RECIEVED WAS A MESSAGE FROM SATAN, THE SAME ONES (MESSAGES) THAT HE BASED HIS CULT OOPS I MEAN RELIGION ON!

THIS IS WHAT I DO BELIEVE…

We believe (I BELIEVE) in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us men and our salvation
He came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
He became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the scriptures:
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son,
He is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one, holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

 

[Karin]

Most proxy baptisms in the LDS Church are done by their own living relatives.

zerinus

AND you believe this crock???
we know that this is not a fact…
jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html

 

[Anima_Christi]

Baptism is a Christian ceremony that is particularly repugnant to Jews. It reminds us of the centuries of persecution against Jews where our ancestors were given a choice; be baptized or suffer death. There are many Christians living today who can trace their family history back to people who chose option one. Our Jewish history books are filled with martyrs who chose option two.
quote]
Of course baptism is repugnant to Jews! They hate Jesus Christ and all that the Christian religion stands for. But we do not stop baptizing infants to appease the Jews and neither should the Mormons stop “baptizing” the dead to appease them or anyone else.

 

[Karin]

Changing the subject won’t get you anywhere my friend.

zerinus

you should know…

 

[dosdog]

dosdog;1655674:

Baptism is a Christian ceremony that is particularly repugnant to Jews. It reminds us of the centuries of persecution against Jews where our ancestors were given a choice; be baptized or suffer death. There are many Christians living today who can trace their family history back to people who chose option one. Our Jewish history books are filled with martyrs who chose option two.
quote]
Of course

baptism is repugnant to Jews! They hate Jesus Christ and all that the Christian religion stands for. But we do not stop baptizing infants to appease the Jews and neither should the Mormons stop “baptizing” the dead to appease them or anyone else.

Infants are incorporated into Christ, not through an act of their own will, but through an act of the sponsor who represents the Church and assumes responsibility for the spiritual education of the infant. The parents, of course, must consent to the baptism; the Church refuses to baptize anyone against his or her will, or even to baptize an infant unless there is some guarantee that the child will be raised in the faith. The sponsors are representatives of the Church, not representatives of the parents. They witness the incorporation of the infant into the fellowship of Christ.

Do not confuse youself
ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT

 

[Karin]

The LDS do not recognize as valid any other Church’s baptism. So if a baptised person joins the LDS Church, he must be re-baptised. Also, if a Mormon gets excommunicated, then wants to come back into the LDS Church, he must be re-baptised.

Paul

and Z got offended when I pointed out that the Catholic Church does not recognize LDS baptism as valid

 

[Karin]

You are nuts.

zerinus

**cestusdei dont feel bad…Z calls lots folks nuts…but we know the truth on who’s nuts and who’s not **
**the personal insults start flying from Z when he gets fustrated or can not answer questions…it is typical behaviour **

 

[tequilamac]

dosdog;1655674:

Baptism is a Christian ceremony that is particularly repugnant to Jews. It reminds us of the centuries of persecution against Jews where our ancestors were given a choice; be baptized or suffer death. There are many Christians living today who can trace their family history back to people who chose option one. Our Jewish history books are filled with martyrs who chose option two.
quote]
Of course

baptism is repugnant to Jews! They hate Jesus Christ and all that the Christian religion stands for. But we do not stop baptizing infants to appease the Jews and neither should the Mormons stop “baptizing” the dead to appease them or anyone else.

Baptism by mormons is repugnant to Jews. It should also be repugnant to any other Christian group, no matter how that group feels about Jews. Why? Because this type of baptism is idol worship and purely superstitious. Anyone who does not find the Mormon baptism by proxy of the dead repugnant obviously would not find any pagan practice repugnant nor would they understand why Elijah was so upset over the people’s worship of Baal. Why Catholics are more interested in following the transactional analysis form of I’m okay you’re okay with mormonism rather than stating clearly this is a pagan superstitious action is beyond me.

By the way, your absolute hostility toward Jews is showing. That makes as much sense as your defense of Mormonism. None.:getholy:

 

[majick275]

I REJECT THE MAN JOSEPH SMITH, HE IS NOT A PROPHET OF GOD, HE IS NOT A MAN OF GOD, HE RECIEVED NO DIVINE MESSAGE FROM GOD THE ONLY THING HE RECIEVED WAS A MESSAGE FROM SATAN, THE SAME ONES (MESSAGES) THAT HE BASED HIS CULT OOPS I MEAN RELIGION ON!

THIS IS WHAT I DO BELIEVE…

We believe (I BELIEVE) in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us men and our salvation
He came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
He became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the scriptures:
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son,
He is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one, holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

me Too! Joseph Smith was a womanizing con man who is still duping people into wasting their time and money with necromancy while the new “top of the pyramid” types build mansions in Utah.

I am a Christian and as such completely dependent on the mercy and grace of Jesus Christ. I WORSHIP him. none other. One God forever and ever.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, and they means they of the church who are baptized for the dead; not they (outside the church) who baptize for the dead.

zerinus

You should quit stretching that far. You’re liable to tear a mental hamstring!

Nice try though. You are a bright youngster, I’ll give you that.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[Damascus]

This is getting ridiculous. If little suzy’s parents buy her a magic wand and she runs around with it proclaiming that she has just made something into something else bippity boppity do, does it change anything?
No. Its all in her imagination.
This ritual is nonsensical.
If someone is going to get offended by it, then they must be under a spell.

Its not an effective ritual. There is no consent from the PERSON involved.

Consent of aunt mille is not effective here. Why are people taking this so seriously?

 

[PaulDupre]

OH no, someone call the ADL!
Seriously, Valke, get over it. The Mormons shouldn’t have to change their religious practices to appease the Jews…if we Catholics had changed our religious practices to appease you, you people would not have commited deicide by having Christ put to death and killing His Apostles. Your Talmud insults Christ and Mary but I don’t the Catholic League going after you and I don’t see you rewriting your Talmud to appease Christians.

I don’t want to give the impression that the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead is doctrinally OK, I’m just sick of Jews using the Holocaust as an excuse to push everyone around. If the state of Israel is going to make the Mormons change their practice of baptizing the dead so they can have religious freedom there, the state of Utah ought to at least put some restrictions on the practice of Judaism. Anyway, from what I know about Mormonism, the Mormon Church does not choose who they will baptize–individual Mormons just bring in a list of names they have collected of dead people to the temple and they are baptized for them. Usually the dead to be baptized include the person’s own ancestors (and they don’t do it as an insult to their ancestors either). They also don’t target Jews specifically to be baptized, so you can get over yourselves. Do you make such an uproar when Mormons baptize Catholics or Protestants or Jehovah’s Witnesses who were killed in the Holocaust, or are Jews the only ones who are off-limits? Never mind, I already know the answer to that one…

Hey wait a minute! I think the Jews have every right to be a bit sensitive to things like this. When was was the last time somebody tried to exterminate all Catholics and came close to succedding? The Jews (our Elder Brothers in the faith) deserve all of our consideration and respect. If we have to bend over backwards until the wounds are healed, then by golly we should do so. Remember that the Jews are still God’s chosen people and the promise made to Abraham has never been revoked:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee - (Gen 12:3)

I know which side of that equation I want to be on! This gentile says “God bless the seed of Abraham!”

God love you,
Paul

 

[majick275]

This is getting ridiculous. If little suzy’s parents buy her a magic wand and she runs around with it proclaiming that she has just made something into something else bippity boppity do, does it change anything?
No. Its all in her imagination.
This ritual is nonsensical.
If someone is going to get offended by it, then they must be under a spell.

Its not an effective ritual. There is no consent from the PERSON involved.

Consent of aunt mille is not effective here. Why are people taking this so seriously?

because if/when we don’t denounce that which we believe to be evil then we have given tacit approval. That starts our descent into true apostasy. We don’t need to stop them we just have to say we don’t approve.

 

[tequilamac]

This is getting ridiculous. If little suzy’s parents buy her a magic wand and she runs around with it proclaiming that she has just made something into something else bippity boppity do, does it change anything?
No. Its all in her imagination.
This ritual is nonsensical.
If someone is going to get offended by it, then they must be under a spell.

Its not an effective ritual. There is no consent from the PERSON involved.

Consent of aunt mille is not effective here. Why are people taking this so seriously?

Because it is growing. And because there is a loss of salvation when one puts their faith in magic wands. Magic wands = a likely descent into Hell.

 

[Eden]

I found this example of LDS genealogy records, including the recorded “baptism after death” of a woman who died in the 16th century:

Mary Marie Giffard
**
**(snip)

Birth : 
      Date : Abt 1530
      Place : [St. James Abbey Northamptonshire United Kingdom](http://www.snippyhaines.net/sh/oxy/evl0.htm#283)
      Source : [S31](http://www.snippyhaines.net/sh/oxy/src.htm#S31)
            Page : [members.nbci.com/dmasters/eng/eng.htm](http://members.nbci.com/dmasters/eng/eng.htm)
**Baptism at age eight or later performed by LDS priest** : 
      **Date** : 3 SEP 1932 **(402 years old)

** Endowment :
Date : 12 DEC 1932 **(402 years old)
** Sealing child :
Date : 5 MAY 1960 **(430 years old)
** Temple : ARIZO
**AFN **: 9HNZ-6F

snippyhaines.net/sh/oxy/n7.htm

I just wanted to share this record with everyone to emphasize that we are not just talking about the baptism of someone recently deceased, we are talking about the “baptism” of people who were “402 years old”!

 

[zerinus]

You should quit stretching that far. You’re liable to tear a mental hamstring!

Nice try though. You are a bright youngster, I’ll give you that.

God bless you,
Paul

And quit twisting the obvious teaching of St Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:

25 For he {Christ} must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death {through the resurrection}.

---

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy {of death} every hour?

Paul is using the Christian practice of baptism for the dead to prove the truth of the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. How can that by any stretch of the imagination be construed to refer to the practices of pagans? Do prophets and Apostles of God use the teachings and practices of paganism to prove the truth of Christian doctrine? Since when?

zerinus

 

[Milliardo]

“Baptized for the dead” is rather obscure in meaning; Paul certainly didn’t say , “baptized in death”, or else the LDS would have a case. But note that Paul is saying here, “Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?” I highlightred those words, since it cannot be that the dead ask that they be baptized, yet Paul here says what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead; obviously then, he is not referring to dead people, but to people who are alive and asking that they be baptized. A clue can be found in another verse: “For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.” (1 Cor. 15:16-17). It seems then that Paul is talking about baptism, but not baptism of the dead, or else verse 29 would be meaningless since he is talking of people who are “having themselves baptized for the dead”–an obvious reference to living people, not dead ones.

 

[dosdog]

And quit twisting the obvious teaching of St Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:

25 For he {Christ} must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death {through the resurrection}.

---

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy {of death} every hour?

Paul is using the Christian practice of baptism for the dead to prove the truth of the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. How can that by any stretch of the imagination be construed to refer to the practices of pagans? Do prophets and Apostles of God use the teachings and practices of paganism to prove the truth of Christian doctrine? Since when?

zerinus

An overview of the differences between Mormon and historic Christian teaching on the subject of salvation for the dead is presented in a companion article “Does the Bible Teach Salvation for the Dead?” It surveys the Biblical grounds offered by the LDS church for its teaching that the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached in the spirit world, especially 1 Peter 3:19-20 and 4:6. It concludes that the official LDS interpretation of this Bible passage, found in Doctrine and Covenants 138, is based on flawed exegesis, and further, that the doctrine of salvation for the dead is incompatible with the general Biblical teaching that our eternal destiny is fixed at death.

the Book of Mormon contains no reference whatever to the practice, either direct or indirect

It is clear from Romans 9:1-3 and 10:1-4 that Paul was acutely conscious that many among his own Jewish kinsmen were outside the gospel fold. He speaks of having “great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart” for his Hebrew brethren (9:2), and declares that “my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved” (10:1). Certainly there would have been some from the apostle’s own extended family who had gone to their graves unbaptized. If Paul taught baptism for the dead, it is inexplicable that he would exclude himself from those who practiced the rite, as he surely does when he writes, “what shall they do which are baptized for the dead . . .”

irr.org/MIT/baptdead.html

 

[zerinus]

“Baptized for the dead” is rather obscure in meaning; Paul certainly didn’t say , “baptized in death”, or else the LDS would have a case. But note that Paul is saying here, “Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?” I highlightred those words, since it cannot be that the dead ask that they be baptized, yet Paul here says what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead; obviously then, he is not referring to dead people, but to people who are alive and asking that they be baptized. A clue can be found in another verse: “For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.” (1 Cor. 15:16-17). It seems then that Paul is talking about baptism, but not baptism of the dead, or else verse 29 would be meaningless since he is talking of people who are “having themselves baptized for the dead”–an obvious reference to living people, not dead ones.

Keep twisting away! :whacky:

zerinus