M
Marie
Guest
I am sure JPII managed to get through it without being too scared. The Holy Spirit did elect him after all so don’t lose sleep over it.
- Status
D
deogratias
Guest
What scares me is how some schismatic groups love to grab onto something like that, blow it out of proportion and make it into something more than it is/was.
Sort of like some TV stations do the news
Sort of like some TV stations do the news
C
chris_ZA
Guest
I really love the Holy Father and for me one of the highlights of Benediction is the chanted prayer for the Pope (“Pro Pontifice” I think), BUT the Pope just like us has to be judged by the fruits that he has produced.
Appointing of Bishops
How many good Bishops have been appointed by the Holy Father. How many Bishops that will even listen to him has he appointed.
Removing non-performing Bishop
Here in South Africa the Bishop of Cape Town was a regular contributor to a website called ‘St Sebastian’s’ that was a website for Gay and Lesbian clergy. Along with abuse of the Holy Father and wishes for his speedy demise, This eminent cleric said he would not want to be Pope as the church wasn’t ready for a Pope in pink robes and a diamond tiara. Repeated complaints achieved nothing until the matter was brought to the attention of the secular press. Only then did the Bishop resign and go on retirement. Retirement is not a punishment it is a reward. What about being sent to a monastery in the desert to water the cacti and contemplate your sins. Good for the faithful to see, better for the penitent.
Dogmatic Teaching
The Pope despite being a Marian devotee has not proclaimed any new Marian Dogmas. Many people are praying and sacrificing for the dogmatisation of the teaching that Our Lady is Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-redemptrix. We are told this is not done because it will upset ecumenical relations. What is more important the honour of Mary or ecumenism and surely if we honour Our Lady she will obtain the grace of conversion for the Orthodox and Protestant churches.
Defender of the Faith
By almost every measure possible the church is worse off to-day than it was when JPII became Pope. Let us take a couple key dogmas and Mortal sin issues:
Belief in the ressurection
Sunday Mass attendance
Practice of artificial contraception
Belief in the True presence
Belief in the unique ministry of the Priest
Belief in the Sacrifice of the Mass
Then on the practical side
Universal shortage of Priests and religious.
The collapse of Catholic institutions.
In fact I think the only area that the Pope really scores highly is as an astute politician. It would appear that along with Ronald Reagan he played a key role in defeating communism.
Liturgical abuse is of course rampant. Here in South Africa the Papal Mass was an occasion of great sacrilege. Many, possibly hundreds or even thousands of non-catholics went to receive communion (never mind the Catholics in mortal sin). This was so prevalent that one of the local sopa opera’s had a storyline around the Pope’s visit and how wonderful it was that everyone irrespective of belief shared in the communion. My understanding is that the celebrant is responsible for any sacrilege. In this case JPII
Many and I am one of them are grateful that the Pope is strong at least in word if not in deed on many moral issues. Condemns the culture of death but it took years to stop Catholic counselling centres in Germany from given the required documentation to obtain an abortion or ordering the US Bishops not to give communion to those openly supporting abortion.
If I am wrong in what I have said above please tell me. I do not want to believe all of these things about our Holy Father.
But please spare me the lies I have told myself for so many years i.e. If you understand the context it will make sense, He doesn’t know, He can’t do anything, It would cause a schism, He would alienate the faithful, etc. etc. etc.
I also pray for the Pope and want all Catholics to pray for him. I no longer believe that he has the time or the health to make an impact on the church. So now I pray that when Our Lord asks him the dread question “Peter knowest thou Me?; Have you fed My lambs? Have you fed My sheep?” The Good Shepherd will be merciful.
Chris from ZA.
Appointing of Bishops
How many good Bishops have been appointed by the Holy Father. How many Bishops that will even listen to him has he appointed.
Removing non-performing Bishop
Here in South Africa the Bishop of Cape Town was a regular contributor to a website called ‘St Sebastian’s’ that was a website for Gay and Lesbian clergy. Along with abuse of the Holy Father and wishes for his speedy demise, This eminent cleric said he would not want to be Pope as the church wasn’t ready for a Pope in pink robes and a diamond tiara. Repeated complaints achieved nothing until the matter was brought to the attention of the secular press. Only then did the Bishop resign and go on retirement. Retirement is not a punishment it is a reward. What about being sent to a monastery in the desert to water the cacti and contemplate your sins. Good for the faithful to see, better for the penitent.
Dogmatic Teaching
The Pope despite being a Marian devotee has not proclaimed any new Marian Dogmas. Many people are praying and sacrificing for the dogmatisation of the teaching that Our Lady is Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-redemptrix. We are told this is not done because it will upset ecumenical relations. What is more important the honour of Mary or ecumenism and surely if we honour Our Lady she will obtain the grace of conversion for the Orthodox and Protestant churches.
Defender of the Faith
By almost every measure possible the church is worse off to-day than it was when JPII became Pope. Let us take a couple key dogmas and Mortal sin issues:
Belief in the ressurection
Sunday Mass attendance
Practice of artificial contraception
Belief in the True presence
Belief in the unique ministry of the Priest
Belief in the Sacrifice of the Mass
Then on the practical side
Universal shortage of Priests and religious.
The collapse of Catholic institutions.
In fact I think the only area that the Pope really scores highly is as an astute politician. It would appear that along with Ronald Reagan he played a key role in defeating communism.
Liturgical abuse is of course rampant. Here in South Africa the Papal Mass was an occasion of great sacrilege. Many, possibly hundreds or even thousands of non-catholics went to receive communion (never mind the Catholics in mortal sin). This was so prevalent that one of the local sopa opera’s had a storyline around the Pope’s visit and how wonderful it was that everyone irrespective of belief shared in the communion. My understanding is that the celebrant is responsible for any sacrilege. In this case JPII
Many and I am one of them are grateful that the Pope is strong at least in word if not in deed on many moral issues. Condemns the culture of death but it took years to stop Catholic counselling centres in Germany from given the required documentation to obtain an abortion or ordering the US Bishops not to give communion to those openly supporting abortion.
If I am wrong in what I have said above please tell me. I do not want to believe all of these things about our Holy Father.
But please spare me the lies I have told myself for so many years i.e. If you understand the context it will make sense, He doesn’t know, He can’t do anything, It would cause a schism, He would alienate the faithful, etc. etc. etc.
I also pray for the Pope and want all Catholics to pray for him. I no longer believe that he has the time or the health to make an impact on the church. So now I pray that when Our Lord asks him the dread question “Peter knowest thou Me?; Have you fed My lambs? Have you fed My sheep?” The Good Shepherd will be merciful.
Chris from ZA.
N
naprous
Guest
It was very hard to answer that poll – because I’m clearly on the other end of the political spectrum from its author! I answered the bottom, because I’m not much of a fan of JPII, but not because he was too liberal – quite the opposite.
Reasons I don’t like JPII:
-to my mind, he’s bringing us back pre-Vat. II
-too cowardly on ecumenism (though here I may be being unfair)
-Ratzinger
-too Marian
-Ratzinger (one can’t say that too many times!)
-too cowardly on the sexual abuse crisis
Those are just a few of my thoughts, off the top of my head. I just keep hoping for a pope Celestine…
Naprous
Reasons I don’t like JPII:
-to my mind, he’s bringing us back pre-Vat. II
-too cowardly on ecumenism (though here I may be being unfair)
-Ratzinger
-too Marian
-Ratzinger (one can’t say that too many times!)
-too cowardly on the sexual abuse crisis
Those are just a few of my thoughts, off the top of my head. I just keep hoping for a pope Celestine…
Naprous
M
Marie
Guest
chris ZA:
I can agree with that part at least. The rest falls directly on the one who is judging JPII as though they were Christ himself. So I think one must take care for the fruit may be rotten if we should judge him unfairly. We will be in deep trouble with Christ should we spread rumors of untruth. Grading a Pope is not really in our designated territory after all.
E
Ellen
Guest
First of all, my opinion is that he’s great.
The reason I love him is the same reason I love Bill O’Reilly: he’s not out to make anyone happy, just trying to tell the truth/do what’s right. The proof is in everyone’s opinion of him (both of them). If you’ve ever watched “The O’Reilly Factor”, you know that everyday Bill gets letters from liberals complaining that he’s a right wing conservative, and from conservatives claiming he’s a liberal (each side is also currently accusing him of campaigning for the other sides presidential candidate).
Same w/ JP: “liberals” (or heterodox, whichever term you prefer) think he’s a backward, sexist old man trying to ruin Vatican II and take the Church back into the dark ages. Traditionalists think he’s a raving liberal heretic. If he’s ticking so many people off for such widely different reasons, he must be telling the truth.
Ellen
p.s.: In case anyone misunderstands, I love Bill O’Reilly, but only b/c he’s a great political commentator. I’m under no illusions of the nature of his so-called Catholicism. That’s not why I like him, he could be an atheist for all it matters (I actually believe he leans toward unitarian, actually, despite claiming to be Catholic).
The reason I love him is the same reason I love Bill O’Reilly: he’s not out to make anyone happy, just trying to tell the truth/do what’s right. The proof is in everyone’s opinion of him (both of them). If you’ve ever watched “The O’Reilly Factor”, you know that everyday Bill gets letters from liberals complaining that he’s a right wing conservative, and from conservatives claiming he’s a liberal (each side is also currently accusing him of campaigning for the other sides presidential candidate).
Same w/ JP: “liberals” (or heterodox, whichever term you prefer) think he’s a backward, sexist old man trying to ruin Vatican II and take the Church back into the dark ages. Traditionalists think he’s a raving liberal heretic. If he’s ticking so many people off for such widely different reasons, he must be telling the truth.
Ellen
p.s.: In case anyone misunderstands, I love Bill O’Reilly, but only b/c he’s a great political commentator. I’m under no illusions of the nature of his so-called Catholicism. That’s not why I like him, he could be an atheist for all it matters (I actually believe he leans toward unitarian, actually, despite claiming to be Catholic).
S
suemc
Guest
The Pope’s problem is that he’s Polish. The church in Poland is back in the Middle Ages. As a Polish-American, I saw it here, too, in the Polish community.
C
Catholic_Eagle
Guest
I wish the CHurch in Poland was in the Middle Ages. That would be great. No Novus Ordo Mass. No Charismatics. No communists. Peasants agalore. [Me being descended from Polish nobility]
P
PXseeker
Guest
Jan Pawel drugi may be my landsman, but he’s not a great pope. He’s a spiritual man, not much of a leader. The church languishes under his stewardship and the power hungry have stepped in to fill leadership voids.
Wojtyla did his best work back in the old country. As a member of the shadow leadership of the country, he helped inspire Walesa and others to challenge the corrupt, bankrupt regime.
Roncalli accomplished more good in his short time than a dozen Wojtylas could ever hope to achieve.
Wojtyla did his best work back in the old country. As a member of the shadow leadership of the country, he helped inspire Walesa and others to challenge the corrupt, bankrupt regime.
Roncalli accomplished more good in his short time than a dozen Wojtylas could ever hope to achieve.
O
oat_soda
Guest
i understand the JPII has really tried to impliment Vatican II. part of that is collegiality of bishops or less micro-managing from the vatican. i don’t think this has worked out so well. instead of excommunicating everyone, the church hopes to bring people back passivley allowing people to freely consent to the teachings of the church.
remember the Pope isn’t perfect and is extremly busy. it easy for us to judge him but were not in his shoes. the church is much bigger than what we have here in the states. we are just a small part of the church. the pope’s teachings are throughly orthodox and his writings will be studied for years to come. don’t blame the pope, **blame the US bishops. **
just be happy cardinal mahony isn’t pope.
remember the Pope isn’t perfect and is extremly busy. it easy for us to judge him but were not in his shoes. the church is much bigger than what we have here in the states. we are just a small part of the church. the pope’s teachings are throughly orthodox and his writings will be studied for years to come. don’t blame the pope, **blame the US bishops. **
just be happy cardinal mahony isn’t pope.
O
oat_soda
Guest
is that supposed to be a bad thing? the church in the middle ages was much better off and people were much more concerned about God than they are today. I hope you’re not part of polish national catholic church. that should be called the liberal secular democratic church for complainers.
S
suemc
Guest
No, I’m not a Polish National Catholic (or coxie, as my grandmother called them - trying to coax them to join them). I am not a flaming liberal by any means, but I think he’s a little conservative for me.
By the way, who appointed the US bishops?
By the way, who appointed the US bishops?
M
Marie
Guest
Blame the US Bishops…hmmm! Easy out it seems to me. Everyone collectively should look inside themselves. Joe Six Pack Catholic and on up the chain of command.
Abba Father, The Holy, Spirit, and Christ who is head of the church are in charge and I trust they can sort it out! JPII can lead but if the goats won’t follow there is not much he can do except to perservere which I think he does quite well.
Abba Father, The Holy, Spirit, and Christ who is head of the church are in charge and I trust they can sort it out! JPII can lead but if the goats won’t follow there is not much he can do except to perservere which I think he does quite well.
F
frdave20
Guest
I think that His Holiness is a great Pope. however, i STRONGLY disagree with the Koran thing as well as Assisi.
I
Illini
Guest
I voted for the option that has him as a great pope. He has done so much to restore the Church after the “post-conciliar drift.” He has obtained more international prestige for the Church and the papacy than any pope since the Middle Ages. And his charity displayed to persons who disagree with him, while still standing his ground, is second to none. His writings reiterated, defended, and explained the constant teaching of the Church at a time when she is under vicious attack.
There is a reason why JPII is still with us. God still has work for him to do, especially in Western Europe.
God bless John Paul II, our Holy Father!
-Illini
Code:
Those who criticize his administration and bishop appointments should remember that the pope is not an absolute monarch. No one man can possibly monitor 5,000 dioceses and 400,000 priests around the world, let alone all the religious and 1 billion laity. When he was elected in 1978, he had to deal with quite a few bishops who were of a very different mindset. Many of these were so young when appointed that they are still active today, 26 years later. Those who want the Pope to just "fire" them are not being realistic. Look what happened when the Vatican tried to remove Archbishop Hunthausen from Seattle in the 1980's.
Many of JPII's earliest appointments were likely of that same mindset, and "in the pipeline" for the episcopacy before he became pope. And, many of his appointees have been outstanding, especially since 1990. The USCCB has undergone a sea change in just the last five years, as a spate of retirements (and scandals:() has turned over more than a third of all U.S. dioceses since 1999. As for the "bad" ones, one cannot always predict how an appointee will turn out. Harry Blackmun was a Republican appointee to the Supreme Court, and he wrote *Roe v. Wade. *Republicans Kennedy, O'Connor, and Souter upheld it in 1992.God bless John Paul II, our Holy Father!
-Illini
R
ridesawhitehors
Guest
I voted that I see him in a different light. Here’s why.
Although I acknowlege the great things he has done historically, and that he is a very holy man, well loved and deservingly so.
To me as a convert of only 4 years I tend to see his influence on me, and on contemporary society as irrelevant. God forgive me, please don’t flame me. Try to understand.
I will obey him and pray for him, but I see a need in the Church for a leader with fire in the belly. I want that kind of leader in my own life. PJPII’s influence on my day to day life is just not there.
For what it is worth ~ I feel this way about my bishop too. I feel very remote from any catholic influence beyond my very orthodox and holy parish priest, what I learn from the pulpit, my own studies, EWTN and catholic answers.
Although I acknowlege the great things he has done historically, and that he is a very holy man, well loved and deservingly so.
To me as a convert of only 4 years I tend to see his influence on me, and on contemporary society as irrelevant. God forgive me, please don’t flame me. Try to understand.
I will obey him and pray for him, but I see a need in the Church for a leader with fire in the belly. I want that kind of leader in my own life. PJPII’s influence on my day to day life is just not there.
For what it is worth ~ I feel this way about my bishop too. I feel very remote from any catholic influence beyond my very orthodox and holy parish priest, what I learn from the pulpit, my own studies, EWTN and catholic answers.
M
Marie
Guest
That is to be expected. God moved you and you are here in the church. Filled with the spirit, but no way can you apprciate the fullness of the Catholic faith yet.
Many protestant converts and even cradle Catholic’s have to battle what they precieve as truth. They are on Fire, but the fire burns slowly. It can be very confusing.
S
Scholastic
Guest
JPII seems to be a very holy man, but he is not a great philosopher. If you’re familiar with Aristotelian metaphysics you know that all being is divided into ten categories. JPII thinks there should be an eleventh category of “lived experience” which, in reality, is reducable to action and passion(and thus is not needed). This may not seem like a big deal but anyone who knows philosophy knows that “a small error in the beginning is a great error in the end.” He also believes in the phenomenological method which is a crock.
He is not a very good pope either. Not only does he make heretics into cardinals, but he allows them to remain cardinals after they’ve publicly taught heresy. This is inexcusable for any pastor, let alone the pope, to allow his sheep to be infected with heresy by their shepherds!
A lot of people are very excited about his Theology of the Body as well. But it’s weak and unconvincing to the skeptic. He should have promoted what Thomistic theology has to say about the subject instead of presuming that he was smart enough to do the job.
On the subject of liturgy I have two complaints against him. First, I’m not a traditionalist, but I think he should have given a universal indult to the tridentine mass by now. Secondly, he is weak on liturgical abuses. Perhaps, this is because he has a history of liturgical abuse himself. If you’ve ever seen the documentary of Witness to Hope, it shows the pope as a priest having mass next to a river with an overturned canoe as an altar! with the paddles in the form of a cross. I have no doubt that this was not allowed.
Also, on the subject of encyclicals, JPII seems to confuse quantity with quality. He has written plenty of encyclicals that are longer than the encyclicals of any other pope, but which say much less. In the past, when the church was going through a tough time, popes would list and condemn popular errors so that the whole world would know that you cannot be catholic and believe in those condemned errors. This is needed today more than ever! I’ve heard lots of stupid explanations of why the pope won’t do this, but there is NO good excuse!
He is not a very good pope either. Not only does he make heretics into cardinals, but he allows them to remain cardinals after they’ve publicly taught heresy. This is inexcusable for any pastor, let alone the pope, to allow his sheep to be infected with heresy by their shepherds!
A lot of people are very excited about his Theology of the Body as well. But it’s weak and unconvincing to the skeptic. He should have promoted what Thomistic theology has to say about the subject instead of presuming that he was smart enough to do the job.
On the subject of liturgy I have two complaints against him. First, I’m not a traditionalist, but I think he should have given a universal indult to the tridentine mass by now. Secondly, he is weak on liturgical abuses. Perhaps, this is because he has a history of liturgical abuse himself. If you’ve ever seen the documentary of Witness to Hope, it shows the pope as a priest having mass next to a river with an overturned canoe as an altar! with the paddles in the form of a cross. I have no doubt that this was not allowed.
Also, on the subject of encyclicals, JPII seems to confuse quantity with quality. He has written plenty of encyclicals that are longer than the encyclicals of any other pope, but which say much less. In the past, when the church was going through a tough time, popes would list and condemn popular errors so that the whole world would know that you cannot be catholic and believe in those condemned errors. This is needed today more than ever! I’ve heard lots of stupid explanations of why the pope won’t do this, but there is NO good excuse!
J
jp2fan
Guest
I’ve heard a number of people say that the theology of the body would have been better in thomistic terms, or whatever you were trying to say. Please, somebody explain to me what Aquinas actually did teach on the subject. Maybe that should be another thread though…
jp2fan
jp2fan
F
Fortiterinre
Guest
I voted “Different Light” and will try to explain. It has been 39 years since the conclusion of the Second Vatican Council. One-third (1/3) of that time was the remainder of Paul VI’s reign. Ergo, two-thirds (2/3) of that time is the almost 26 years of John Paul II’s reign. Whatever your opinion of the state of the Church, JPII has had twice as long as Paul VI to deal with it.
I am generally positive about the current and future state of the Church-SURPRISE! However, I think the sex abuse scandal is something that clearly happened on Pope John Paul II’s watch. I’m not sure he’s as much of an administrator as I would like to see, and sometimes great administration is not needed. But my suspicion, which I hate even to type, is that a bit of the cult of personality got in the way of good administration, and as much as I would like not to believe it, I can’t see how the sex abuse scandal isn’t related to this.
I definitely love the Pope and believe him to be a saint. I don’t think he has earned the title “The Great.” Slow change from the middle of the road tends not to earn titles like that. The fact that both conservatives and liberals hate the Pope to me is a sign that he has been too careful to remain “middle of the road,” even when that road is crooked. The pope is a powerful symbol, and some could argue that the Church needed a globe trotting, tarmac-kissing holy man to light a fire in us all. I’m just afraid the fire didn’t take.
I am generally positive about the current and future state of the Church-SURPRISE! However, I think the sex abuse scandal is something that clearly happened on Pope John Paul II’s watch. I’m not sure he’s as much of an administrator as I would like to see, and sometimes great administration is not needed. But my suspicion, which I hate even to type, is that a bit of the cult of personality got in the way of good administration, and as much as I would like not to believe it, I can’t see how the sex abuse scandal isn’t related to this.
I definitely love the Pope and believe him to be a saint. I don’t think he has earned the title “The Great.” Slow change from the middle of the road tends not to earn titles like that. The fact that both conservatives and liberals hate the Pope to me is a sign that he has been too careful to remain “middle of the road,” even when that road is crooked. The pope is a powerful symbol, and some could argue that the Church needed a globe trotting, tarmac-kissing holy man to light a fire in us all. I’m just afraid the fire didn’t take.
- Status