Judaism and Catholicism ... the connections or the dissociations

[jcrichton]

I think the fish is somewhat less big than you’re claiming.

Can you think of a reason why some European Jews might have considered Christians to be somewhat naughty? That the Esau bit might possibly be metaphor rather than a considered genetic study?

Meanwhile, over at the journal Civiltà Cattolica at the time . . .

On the other hand, perhaps the route to ‘reconciliation’ implies that we don’t spend our time making lists of historic insults?

Hi!
I fully concur with your final statement… seeking to know the past should be about building the Body of Christ not nursing vendettas or claiming the highest score for being most oppressed/misunderstood!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Remember, I am a Hebrew Catholic. Of course I know the history of how Esau has been viewed by Orthodox Jews in the past.

But this also means I know how “Esau” is currently used today. Do you know? Modern views are dismissing the very views of Esau you mention. Judaism as a whole is reminding itself that Esau was still a son of Isaac, the son of Abraham. Past associations with Esau being the epitome of evil and Rome are being left in the past.

As I also mentioned in line with the Holy See, that the dialogue is still ongoing and the Church does not claim to have all the answers.

And as I also mentioned, some prefer walls to bridges on both sides. There are some Jews who still spit in my direction because I am Catholic and there are some Catholics who spit in my direction because I am a Jew, but I prefer to return such gestures with a blessing.

And yes, I have read these documents. Even if you find you are being cursed by either of them, have you never read the Bible where it says: “Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse” (Romans 12:14) and “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”? (Matthew 5:44) If you take what is said as an insulting jab, why are you not rather blessing those who curse you? What has possessed you to avoid following Scripture as your guide in this case, even if you are right? Did not Jesus say you were blessed when people insult you, persecute you, and say false things of you on the account of being a Christian? Did Jesus instruct you to complain about it, point out this fault in others, or rather to rejoice and give thanks?–Matthew 5:11-12.

More important than what others may or may not be saying about us, what insults they may or may not hurl our way, Christians are never free to go against the above instruction and return insult for insult, hatred for hatred, but to pray, rejoice, and bring peace. “If at all possible, as far as it depends upon you, live at peace with all men.”–Romans 12:18.

Hi!
…I like your take on things (being caught in the middle); I am quite pedestrian so I tend to think in a very low key–was Esau not the eldest? I believe that holding a position that the Church is symbolic of Esau would be, by default, erroneous since that would mean that Christians are the Jews elder brothers. So anyone intending to wrong the Church would be quite short-changed or completely ignorant that Jews are Christians elder Brothers! Further, Believers are not descendants of Abraham by blood but by Faith (although that would open up a can of worms since Faith came before circumcision).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

By the way, StGerardM.,

You are entitled to your view. Despite the intention behind the use of “Esau” in the document (meant to demonstrated the greatest of reconciliations), if you find the expressions offensive then maybe you should get involved in the dialogue between Catholics and Jews.

Catholics are not the only ones who need to change their attitudes and language in regard to the issues that face us all. Jews need to as well.

So don’t view my comments as a call to change your views. See them more as an explanation of what the meanings in the document may have intended to be, and perhaps this exchange to show were they may have fallen short. We must seek ways of healing and never return to taking sides where we remain seeing one another as opposers.

I think that even though there are hurt feelings, these exchanges (as long as we have people such as yourself who are familiar with the issues and can point to the positive changes that are occurring) can by catalysts to the type of dialogue you’ve mentioned.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

For a document aimed at “reconciliation”, there was no need to even mention Esau.

No one is trading insults. The document cited is just a poor example of “reconciliation”.

But the fact you felt obliged to bring it up might mean you are skeptical of reconciliation and not even willing to try. Both Jews and Christians MUST let go, at least a little, of past abuses; otherwise, reconciliation is indeed a futile effort.

 

[jcrichton]

CD,

what do you mean by the Church does not claim to have al the answers? concerning what?

Hi!
…there are many issues which the Church has not passed any pronouncements; ie: Judas’ final destination, the reference to the book of Enoch in the book of St. Jude, how the Jews will be saved, Salvation achieved even by those who do not know Jesus… the Church does not reject scientific findings even when they seem to contradict Scriptures (ie: evolution); the Church refers to some of those intricate unknowns (ie: the Holy Trinity) as God’s Mysteries (these understood in the vein of St. Paul’s “This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church”–Ephesians 5:32).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It is recommended that you read and study the document “The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable” for a fuller explanation of what I am repeating from that and related Holy See statements.*

The Church acknowledges:

1. The Covenant between Israel and God is irrevocable.
2. The events since the Shoah demonstrate to Christians that God is still working with and through the children of Israel despite the fact that they have not accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.
3. The Church’s faith in Jesus as Messiah is equally irrevocable.
4. There are not two ways of salvation, only one.
5. It has not been revealed to the Church how God intends to reconcile all these previous points.

The Church teaches from Inspired Scripture that the Jews play a central part in the economy of salvation. St. Paul’s statement, “all Israel will be saved” has not been explained in detail as if it must follow a formula currently understood, practiced or foreseen by Christians. From St. Paul’s inspired standpoint, how this will eventually play out is a mystery hidden from the current view of humanity. (Romans 11:28-35) As long as these details remain excluded from what has been revealed to the Church, they remain among those issues which the Church cannot draw precise answers.–Compare Acts 1:6-7.

It will take far more than a superficial reading of both my current post and the various documents to fully take in exactly where the discussion has come from, where the dialogue stands now, and the reason both side believe that Providence directs where it is currently going. It is important that you see and study these documents for yourself and, if you have important questions, to approach individuals in your local diocesan offices who can put you in contact with someone who can personally aid you.

It is understandable that you will have many questions as the dialogue has been going on now for over half a century, and sadly most individual Catholics and Jews have neither been involved nor read even one of the documents or studies produced over this time. Add to this that the latest document on the subject from the Holy See is a major historical development in the dialogue.

• If you have not already, please study this document in full which is available on the Vatican’s website via the links supplied in my previous posts.

…do you have a cheat sheet on the Shoah–something that list the salient points?

Thanks!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

But the fact you felt obliged to bring it up might mean you are skeptical of reconciliation and not even willing to try. Both Jews and Christians MUST let go, at least a little, of past abuses; otherwise, reconciliation is indeed a futile effort.

Hi!
I fully concur with your final sentence!.. it is interesting that God Calls us to not seek vengeance but to allow Him to Be the Equalizer–it is God who is truly offended when man wars under the guise of Faithfulness to God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[StGerardMajella]

Judaism has always awaited the day of reconciliation with “Esau,” and the Orthodox statement talks about this, which in fact is the reference made. As I previously mentioned the cultural views on Esau have been reshaped in Judaism since the Shoa. These views are no longer confined to definitions you are declaring.

Unfortunately, the Orthodox prayer books, including those used during festivals, are replete with derogatory references to the Church. (These aren’t antique books either - These are modern English translations available from the largest Orthodox publishing houses. I only know this because I have personally read most of them.)

The Church is oftentimes referred to derogatorily as “The Red Ones” (another reference to Esau/Edom), Amalekites, etc.

was Esau not the eldest? I believe that holding a position that the Church is symbolic of Esau would be, by default, erroneous since that would mean that Christians are the Jews elder brothers. So anyone intending to wrong the Church would be quite short-changed or completely ignorant that Jews are Christians elder Brothers!

You are correct. This notion references the historical term “replacement theology”, where the Jews were believed to have been replaced by the Christians as God’s “Chosen People”. Many of our older, pre-Vatican II Roman Missals will reference replacement theology quite openly.

After a couple of millennia of putting up with each other I think the most important thing is that we just leave one another alone, physically. Talking and understanding is a bonus.

Agreed. (Just don’t start the conversation by calling me an Edomite, lol.)

 

[Kaninchen]

Agreed. (Just don’t start the conversation by calling me an Edomite, lol.)

Being so close to becoming a Veteran Member after 10 years, you can count on me not starting a conversation with you.

 

[Kaninchen]

But the fact you felt obliged to bring it up might mean you are skeptical of reconciliation and not even willing to try. Both Jews and Christians MUST let go, at least a little, of past abuses; otherwise, reconciliation is indeed a futile effort.

What does one mean by ‘reconciliation’, though? Were we once ‘conciled’ and then ‘unconciled’ in some way?

Are there really fewer Jew-haters, I wonder? Or is it that the non-Jew-haters are much more vocal now?

 

[Tomdstone]

Are there really fewer Jew-haters, I wonder?

BTW, does this only work one way or are there no Jews who dislike the Palestinians and their claim for their homeland?

 

[waxwing]

This thread prompted this short clip by Rabbi Shai Held (who btw is a very engaging speaker and is great for those who have a interest in Judaism)
The pertinent part starts at about the 44min mark and lasts about 2-3 minutes, although the entire video which is close to 2hours long is worth watching,

The clip essentially says the similarities between Catholicism & Judaism is in the concept of reading/interpreting scripture/doctrine etc through the lens of tradition rather than bypassing all this history/wisdom and going back to the source and starting anew every time we approach Scripture. (thats my summary at least)

Hope this contributes to discussion.

youtube.com/watch?v=P8OqHih4Wdo

 

[CeelosDeznos]

…do you have a cheat sheet on the Shoah–something that list the salient points?

Thanks!

Maran atha!

Angel

A “cheat sheet” on the Shoah? I’m not sure what you mean. As you probably know, “Shoah” is what Jews call the Holocaust. I don’t know what a “cheat sheet” is in reference to this event in history. Can you explain?

 

[Vico]

Hallo community,

I am a researcher who is browsing throughout the internet to find out some information on various religions starting with Judaism. The reason I selected this specific faith because as far as I know, Judaism is the first and oldest Monotheistic faith. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If you are wondering why I chose a Catholic Forum in order to find out for what I am looking for is because I believe that Catholicism or Christianity is to be believed the continuation of Judaism. If I am speaking the truth I think it’s fair to say that the Christians believe Jesus fulfilled the religion of Judaism and as result the catholic church has been born.

The Christians believe Jesus is God incarnate, also the God of the prophets in the old testament.

He is the Messiah that was to be prophesized.

The Second God Head of the Most Holy Trinity

The Only Begotten Son of God

Now I have to turn my attention to the Jews.

This is what I don’t understand and I am so eagerly searching the answers to. If Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament, does this make Jesus what the Christians say about him? Does it not say in the Jewish scripture that God would become Man and fulfill the laws of the prophets? That a DIVINE Messiah would be born? In the Old Testament the scripture of the Hebrew Bible says “Let’s make man in OUR image” Does this not foretell the inscription of God as a Triune Deity? What about the Ultimate Sacrifice that claims that Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of mankind? Are Jews allowed to believe these things about Jesus? Or are these things against the Jewish faith?

I am sincerely asking these questions in order to help me with my journey to find the answers. Please I hope Catholics and Jews in these forums can assist me with my research and maybe we all can learn something. Because after all we are the children of the same God and are part of his family.

I am on Monday starting to read the Old Testament also known as The Hebrew Bible. If this community can be so kind can somebody inform me what books I can read that would help me better understand the Jewish faith and its scriptures. That would be MUCH appreciated.

Thank You

www.britannica.com has under Monotheism (Theology):

*Chinese Lord-on-High - (1600–1046 bce)*The religion of the ancient Chinese Shang dynasty (1600–1046 bce) featured belief in the Lord-on-High (Shangdi), who is comparable in many ways to the high god of other religions.

*Zoroastrianism - Supreme God Ahura Mazdā (7th–6th century bce)*Some religions are in the main dualistic; they view the universe as comprising two basic and usually opposed principles, such as good and evil or spirit and matter. Insofar as the conception of a god and an antigod rather than that of two gods is encountered, this kind of religion can be considered another variation of monotheism… The most important instance of dualism within a religion is the Persian religion Zoroastrianism as founded by Zoroaster (7th–6th century bce), in which Ormazd (Ahura Mazdā, the “Wise Lord,” or the good, supreme god) and Ahriman (Angra Manyu, the destructive spirit) are each other’s opposite and implacable enemy; at the end of time, Ormazd will defeat Ahriman.

Judiasim - Yahweh (6th century bce)“There may be some reason to speak of the conception of God found in the Hebrew Scriptures as monolatry rather than as monotheism, because the existence of other gods is seldom explicitly denied and many times even acknowledged … In later times—beginning in the 6th century bce and continuing into the early centuries of the Common Era—Jewish monotheism developed in the same direction as did Christianity …”

britannica.com/topic/monotheism

 

[jcrichton]

What does one mean by ‘reconciliation’, though? Were we once ‘conciled’ and then ‘unconciled’ in some way?

Are there really fewer Jew-haters, I wonder? Or is it that the non-Jew-haters are much more vocal now?

I remember, as a child, on a Sunday coming out of the parish hating Jews because “they killed the Messiah.” Within a couple of hours or so the Holy Spirit enlighten me to understand that Jesus had to surrender His Life on the Cross for the Fulfillment of Scriptures, that Judas, one of His Own, had to betray Him, and that the masters of the Law had to reject Him… all in fulfillment of Scriptures; I also was able to discern that, since Jesus had Forgiven all those involved in His Passion and Death, I had to forgive those who were involved in Christ’s Crucifixion…

However, we are talking about nearly two-thousand years after the event; as the Jews persecuted the Way such innocent sentiments may have arisen only to be fueled with cultural and institutional bias; added to that the gregarious norm of the Jews also influenced the discrimination that would arise–let’s not forget the various incursions of pagans, barbarians, and Muslims into the west (specifically Spain and England)…

In my estimation, the Jews, aside from their affinity to capitalize on their abilities, were seen as an invading force since they would not readily assimilate into the “cultures” around them but maintain a separate existence.

Since WWII, the pain of the past have been on the mind of the Jews (again from my estimation) and many have become more sensitized to any and all assaults/threads real/perceived.

Other than the issue of the Middle East, I have not experienced a rise of anti-Jewish sentiment–granted, I’m a born Catholic living in the Eastern US, where I am not exposed to much religious/cultural discrimination (other than from the obamanizement of the government).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

A “cheat sheet” on the Shoah? I’m not sure what you mean. As you probably know, “Shoah” is what Jews call the Holocaust. I don’t know what a “cheat sheet” is in reference to this event in history. Can you explain?

…information that is easily assimilated (instead of volumes of text) with facts documenting numbers and conditions–most of what I know comes from the Diary of Anne Frank and the various takes on movies such as “Band of Brothers” (which was basically at the closing episode); I’m quite lazy… just learned from a commercial that 23 million people die each year from alcohol and drug abuse–the commercial was during a program which I recorded… this bit of information led me to research a second recorded program (Person of Interest) which stated that 56 million people die each year… since these facts were simple bites I was able to retain/recollect and compare them easily… having them in the back of my mind, I will follow up by researching the net for statistics on these two issues (worldwide yearly death & death related to alcohol and drug abuse).

I was hoping to get similar bites of info (hopefully with a little added perspective since you are both a Jew and a Christian) to better understand/research the topic.

Please, know that in no way am I asking for “proof” or “evidential documentation” since I believe that the Holocaust was an actual event in history.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Kaninchen]

Since WWII, the pain of the past have been on the mind of the Jews (again from my estimation) and many have become more sensitized to any and all assaults/threads real/perceived.

I think that the lesson of that era is a mixture of “we have to do something” and “whatever we do it may not/won’t work” (being ‘assimilated’ or even being the grandchild of somebody who converted from Judaism didn’t save you) so why put up with it?

The thing about reconciliation, though, is it rather assumes a re-establishment of some happier prior state but I don’t really know how one could find such a state and, even if one could, after a couple of decades of discussing religion with Christians, I find it difficult to see just what it is that we Jews are supposed to do about it. Beyond things like pointing out that we’ve never used Christian children for making matzos.

I’m not accusing significant numbers of Christians of being Jew-haters. All groups have within them proportions of people who are haters, people who are bonkers and so on and people who hate have to have somebody to hate and people who are bonkers need to have people to be bonkers about, it’s the question of who has to deal with it that I wonder about.

 

[Vico]

www.britannica.com has under Monotheism (Theology):

*Chinese Lord-on-High - (1600–1046 bce)*The religion of the ancient Chinese Shang dynasty (1600–1046 bce) featured belief in the Lord-on-High (Shangdi), who is comparable in many ways to the high god of other religions.

*Zoroastrianism - Supreme God Ahura Mazdā (7th–6th century bce)*Some religions are in the main dualistic; they view the universe as comprising two basic and usually opposed principles, such as good and evil or spirit and matter. Insofar as the conception of a god and an antigod rather than that of two gods is encountered, this kind of religion can be considered another variation of monotheism… The most important instance of dualism within a religion is the Persian religion Zoroastrianism as founded by Zoroaster (7th–6th century bce), in which Ormazd (Ahura Mazdā, the “Wise Lord,” or the good, supreme god) and Ahriman (Angra Manyu, the destructive spirit) are each other’s opposite and implacable enemy; at the end of time, Ormazd will defeat Ahriman.

Also Deuteronomy 6:4 is purely monotheistic: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.

Yet, the people fell into idol worship at times after that.

Judiasim - Yahweh (6th century bce)“There may be some reason to speak of the conception of God found in the Hebrew Scriptures as monolatry rather than as monotheism, because the existence of other gods is seldom explicitly denied and many times even acknowledged … In later times—beginning in the 6th century bce and continuing into the early centuries of the Common Era—Jewish monotheism developed in the same direction as did Christianity …”

britannica.com/topic/monotheism

 

[jcrichton]

I think that the lesson of that era is a mixture of “we have to do something” and “whatever we do it may not/won’t work” (being ‘assimilated’ or even being the grandchild of somebody who converted from Judaism didn’t save you) so why put up with it?

The thing about reconciliation, though, is it rather assumes a re-establishment of some happier prior state but I don’t really know how one could find such a state and, even if one could, after a couple of decades of discussing religion with Christians, I find it difficult to see just what it is that we Jews are supposed to do about it. Beyond things like pointing out that we’ve never used Christian children for making matzos.

I’m not accusing significant numbers of Christians of being Jew-haters. All groups have within them proportions of people who are haters, people who are bonkers and so on and people who hate have to have somebody to hate and people who are bonkers need to have people to be bonkers about, it’s the question of who has to deal with it that I wonder about.

…I’ve met a few people (Dominicans) who have inter-married with both Jews and Arabs… I wondered why they would do such a thing (given the issue of religion and the fanaticism of culture); though I’ve not interacted with them (knew them when I was in hs) I’ve not heard of their marriages going awry–however they may have worked out their differences it proves that humanity can supersede cultural and religious biases.

Yet, as you’ve noted (and as Taylor S songs says) haters are going to hate–it is an interesting phenomenon because there’s no actual gauge that can be applied as people hate out of ignorance, distrust, racism, religious zealousness, and even outright jealousy and small-mindedness; sadly, it is fueled by those in the media (including hollowood) and those who believe themselves to be “better” than the rest…

What I meant about assimilation is that the Jews (from my experience) were perceived (as Christians were as the Church emerged) as a separate society… yet, this has faded out–with the exception of the haters (which they tend to hate both discriminately and indiscriminately, as they hate even their own).

…when engaging in religious argument/exchange feelings (hot and divisive) may arise as both sides may throw punches and jabs… (btw: “Christian children for making matzos?” the reference escapes me) yet, even as some would get hot-under-the-collar, I believe that such engagements are necessary as most of the diplomacy remains in the high quarters and exchanges while the common folk are expected to know things through osmosis or some other type of trickle-down format.

…you are correct on the terminology… reconciliation presupposes that there once existed some unity; however, in the Catholic Christian view Christians and Jews are but of one Body:

15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. (St. John 10:15-17)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[StGerardMajella]

…when engaging in religious argument/exchange feelings (hot and divisive) may arise as both sides may throw punches and jabs… (btw: “Christian children for making matzos?”

The reference is to blood libel - a false accusation that Jews kidnapped and murdered Christian children in order to use their blood as part of religious rituals during Jewish holidays. In the Middle Ages, many Jews lost their lives over these false accusations. The Church has publicly denounced blood libels.