Judaism and Christianity

  • Thread starter Thread starter Qoeleth
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I was also curious about Yiddish. Is it a universal language within Judaism? Is Hebrew what you study to learn the Torah and Yiddish for more everyday use? Or, am I mixing things up? How big a role do traditional languages play in Judaism?

In Catholicism, parents have certain obligations in bringing up their children. We obliged to baptize, take our children to mass on Sundays and Holy Days, First Communion at the appropriate age (usually seven), prepare them for confirmation, take them to confession regularly, and take them to religious education. If possible, we should send them to a Catholic School. What obligations do Jewish parents have?
 
Thank you. The level and depth at which the Torah is studied in not well understood by most Christians. Your description of the arguments are very interesting. In these discussions, how do the participants ensure that they don’t go astray? If a rabbi cannot be present, is there a someone that takes on the role of “referee”, so to speak? Is anything out of bounds?
I think one of the most difficult things that Christians face when trying to understand Judaism is thinking that Judaism is ‘like’ Christianity but without Jesus, it isn’t.

There’s a kind of analogy with a country that starts out with a Constitution and moves on from there - eventually you get laws applying to the life of the community within the context of the Constitution, a legal system, legal authorities, lawyers, jurisprudence courses, enormous law libraries and so on. Judaism started off with the Torah, the rest of the Tanakh (a source for understanding Torah, first the Prophets, then the Writings), Oral Torah (think Talmud), and century after century of sages and rabbis all contributing to and understanding of ‘halakhah’, the law, a way of life.

The kind of disputes you’re talking about would exist within that kind of legal authority context. Judaism is a religion of law and everyone’s a lawyer (or so it often seems). Your New Testament has numerous incidences of Jesus rowing with other (strawman, from a Jewish perspective) rabbis in this kind of process.
One of my own weaknesses are the Psalms. At times, I have trouble with them. I understand some of the history and a little about the origin, but is there a book or other way to study or understand the Psalms better? I believe our own religious sing them, so if I could get past a few mental hurdles, I could enrich my own faith.
You’d probably need an academic source for that - in other words one where both Jewish and Christian perspectives are dealt with in one volume because I’ve feeling there may be a lot to learn from the differences in perspective.
 
I was also curious about Yiddish. Is it a universal language within Judaism? Is Hebrew what you study to learn the Torah and Yiddish for more everyday use? Or, am I mixing things up? How big a role do traditional languages play in Judaism?
No, Yiddish is not universal, the Shoah wiped out a large proportion of its speakers.
In Catholicism, parents have certain obligations in bringing up their children. We obliged to baptize, take our children to mass on Sundays and Holy Days, First Communion at the appropriate age (usually seven), prepare them for confirmation, take them to confession regularly, and take them to religious education. If possible, we should send them to a Catholic School. What obligations do Jewish parents have?
I’m a Jewish mother, my main obligation has always been to interfere in my daughters’ lives as much as possible! 😃

Rather like Catholics, we raise our children for a way of life as well as in a religion.
 
  1. What do Jewish people think of ethical issues, like abortion, and homosexuality.
Pew Research has issued an extensive research report regarding Jewish Americans in October 2013. The report is publicly available, and is entitled, “A Portrait of Jewish Americans”. You can find a copy online.

In short, the report suggests a sizeable disparity in social values between Orthodox Jews, who tend to be much more socially conservative, and other Jewish affiliations (Reform, etc.).
  1. Do they still believe they are a ‘chosen race’, and, if so, do they identify themselves as a racial or a religious group (e.g. is it possible to be Jew of Chinese race, or a black Jew?)
The Jewish people are “chosen” for their unique calling to follow and adhere to the commandments of the Torah.

Judaism is a worldwide religion practiced among people of diverse backgrounds (including Jews from Africa and China).

One should, however, differentiate between religion and ancestry. One may very well have ancestral roots with the ancient Hebrew people, but not necessarily practice the religion of Judaism (and vice-versa).
What do Jewish people think of Jesus? What do Jewish people think of the Virgin Mary?
There are varying rabbinic opinions too extensive to describe here. In short, the prevailing mainstream opinion in Judaism is that Christ was not the Messiah, that Christ was not Divine, and that the Trinity is in error as it stands opposed to the “oneness” of the Creator.

Perhaps one of the most favorable opinions of Christianity, however, came from Rabbi Jacob Emden, a prominent German rabbi who lived in the 1700s. He praised both Islam and Christianity for the spread of monotheism worldwide. He believed that Christ’s mission through St. Paul was to spread the Noahide Laws among the Gentiles while leaving the Jews to adhere to Mosaic Law.

A great book on this subject is “The Anguish of the Jews” by Fr. Edward Flannery.
 
There are varying rabbinic opinions too extensive to describe here. In short, the prevailing mainstream opinion in Judaism is that Christ was not the Messiah, that Christ was not Divine, and that the Trinity is in error as it stands opposed to the “oneness” of the Creator.

.
So- where would they stand in relation to C.S. Lewis’ trilemna- either Jesus was a liar, a madman, or the Son of God?

Or is there a fourth possibility they would favour?
 
“Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler of the universe who has not created me a man.” 🙂

(the obligation to study Torah in the full traditional sense falls on males - the ‘not created me a woman’ prayer being a celebration of that obligation)
Isn’t that a little misogynist?

Aren’t there any female Jewish Scripture scholars?
 
So- where would they stand in relation to C.S. Lewis’ trilemna- either Jesus was a liar, a madman, or the Son of God?

Or is there a fourth possibility they would favour?
A character in a story book.
 
So- where would they stand in relation to C.S. Lewis’ trilemna- either Jesus was a liar, a madman, or the Son of God?
The main thrust of the rabbinic argument is that the Creator is not a human incarnation, and that the biblical prophecies concerning the Messiah have not yet been fulfilled. And, that the Trinity denies the “oneness” of the Creator.
Isn’t that a little misogynist?
Actually, no. This is a prayer in the Jewish siddur (daily prayer book). And, at first glance, from a modern Western perspective, the prayer sounds sexist. However, it is not meant as a derogatory expression or phrase, but rather a prayer expressing appreciation for one’s particular and unique spiritual obligations. Specifically, Jewish men and women have different spiritual obligations in Judaism.

It’s kind of like saying, “Thank you for making me a fireman, because I really love my job helping others and the unique responsibilities associated with this job.”

Similar to an “eye for an eye” was never meant to be taken literally. It referred instead to monetary compensation. Hebrew nuances and idioms.
 
When you say Jesus has no position in Judaism- yes, I get that. But what I wonder is what Jews think of Jesus. Surely they cannot have no opinion.
Oh, gee, I dunno…maybe cause He’s arguably the most famous Jew of all time? Maybe because He has probably had a greater impact on the Jewish people as a whole than anyone since Moses?

C’mon, Kaninchen…Catholics can hold opinions about Martin Luther.

It’s okay for you to be honest about what you really think of Jesus. 😉
 
Oh, gee, I dunno…maybe cause He’s arguably the most famous Jew of all time? Maybe because He has probably had a greater impact on the Jewish people as a whole than anyone since Moses?

C’mon, Kaninchen…Catholics can hold opinions about Martin Luther.

It’s okay for you to be honest about what you really think of Jesus. 😉
I think I should make it clear that I am not going to enter into any discussion where you are involved, Randy.
 
As I said in my previous post, I’ve spent a couple of decades discussing religion with Christians so, I’d suggest, I’ve some experience of ‘dialogue’ and the question I’d like to pose you is: why dialogue?

There’s dialogue that dissolves myths about each other, there’s dialogue that explains aspects of belief and so on and that’s healthy.

There’s another kind of dialogue where Christians spend their time trying to convince, to ‘prove’ Christianity, to ‘convert’ and I have to tell you, that just gets annoying after a while. I may ‘respect’ the NT in the sense that you might ‘respect’ the Qur’an, Book of Mormon or the Hindu Texts, doesn’t mean I have to ‘believe’ it any more than you have to believe them…
Of course. That’s fair.

However, When you assert that the NT is not “reportage”, you have made a positive claim, and the burden of proof is on you at this point to provide some evidence in support of your view.

Now, this has nothing to do with “converting” you or anyone else; it has to do with historical facts and dialoguing about them honestly.

The idea that Jesus was a myth or that the NT gospels are works of fiction is simply not supported by the evidence, and even atheist/agnostic scholars (such as Dr. Bart Ehrman) scoff at that idea. For example, Ehrman said:

“The denial that Christ was crucified is like the denial of the Holocaust. For some it’s simply too horrific to affirm. For others it’s an elaborate conspiracy to coerce religious sympathy. But the deniers live in a historical dreamworld. (Bart Ehrman, interview with Reginald V. Finley Sr., “Who Changed The New Testament and Why”, The Infidel Guy Show, 2008. Available at : city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1264542-did-jesus-exist-disciple-buddha-america.html#ixzz2pvePXTT1
 
It’s okay for you to be honest about what you really think of Jesus.
Randy - Not trying to speak on behalf of Kaninchen, but I believe she already answered this assertion earlier, describing how the focus of Judaism is centered on the Creator - the Father - and keeping the commandments of the Torah, and the traditions of the elders.

Whereas, by contrast, Christianity is Christ-centered in terms of prayers, liturgy, etc. The two religions have different “focal points”.

So, yes, I can see where a Jewish person wouldn’t necessarily have an opinion on Christ, especially if they were raised Jewish and never had any in-depth exposure to Christianity. It’s almost like asking a Buddhist what he thinks of Scientology.
 
Randy - Not trying to speak on behalf of Kaninchen, but I believe she already answered this assertion earlier, describing how the focus of Judaism is centered on the Creator - the Father - and keeping the commandments of the Torah, and the traditions of the elders.

Whereas, by contrast, Christianity is Christ-centered in terms of prayers, liturgy, etc. The two religions have different “focal points”.

So, yes, I can see where a Jewish person wouldn’t necessarily have an opinion on Christ, especially if they were raised Jewish and never had any in-depth exposure to Christianity. It’s almost like asking a Buddhist what he thinks of Scientology.
My apologies to all. I’m working my way down through the thread now. 😊
 
She does use that phrase often. And she has others that she uses frequently, also.

What I believe that the OP wants is an honest answer to a simple question rather than a tired catch-phrase trotted out again and again.

It’s all I have ever wanted from Kaninchen…🤷
 
A character in a story book.
:nope:

That “legend” option is not available to you. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.

"Serious historians of the early Christian movement—all of them—have spent many years preparing to be experts in their field. Just to read the ancient sources requires expertise in a range of ancient languages: Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and often Aramaic, Syriac, and Coptic, not to mention the modern languages of scholarship (for example, German and French). And that is just for starters. Expertise requires years of patiently examining ancient texts and a thorough grounding in the history and culture of Greek and Roman antiquity, the religions of the ancient Mediterranean world, both pagan and Jewish, knowledge of the history of the Christian church and the development of its social life and theology, and, well, lots of other things. It is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure. Again, this is not a piece of evidence, but if nothing else, it should give one pause. In the field of biology, evolution may be “just” a theory (as some politicians painfully point out), but it is the theory subscribed to, for good reason, by every real scientist in every established university in the Western world.

“Still, as is clear from the avalanche of sometimes outraged postings on all the relevant Internet sites, there is simply no way to convince conspiracy theorists that the evidence of their position is too thin to be convincing and that the evidence for the traditional view is thoroughly persuasive. Anyone who chooses to believe something contrary to evidence that an overwhelming majority of people find overwhelmingly convincing—whether it involves the fact of the Holocaust, the landing on the moon, the assassination of Presidents, or even a presidential place of birth—will not be convinced. Simply will [emphasis original] not be convinced.

“And so…I do not expect to convince anyone in that boat. What I do hope is to convince genuine seekers who really want to know how we know that Jesus did exist, as virtually every scholar of antiquity, of biblical studies, of classics, and of Christian origins in this country and, in the Western world agrees. Many of these scholars have no vested interest in the matter. As it turns out, I myself do not either. I am not a Christian, and I have no interest in promoting a Christian cause or a Christian agenda. I am an agnostic with atheist leanings, and my life and views of the world would be approximately the same whether or not Jesus existed. My beliefs would vary little. The answer to the question of Jesus’ historical existence will not make me more or less happy, content, hopeful, likable, rich, famous, or immortal.

“But as a historian, I think evidence matters. And the past matters. And for anyone to whom both evidence and the past matter, a dispassionate consideration of the case makes it quite plain: Jesus did exist. He may not have been the Jesus that your mother believes in or the Jesus of the stain-glass window or the Jesus of your least-favorite televangelist or the Jesus proclaimed by the Vatican, the Southern Baptist Convention, the local megachurch, or the California Gnostic. But he did exist, and we can say a few things with relative certainty about him.” (Ehrman, Bart, Did Jesus Exist?, 5-6.)
 
What I believe that the OP wants is an honest answer to a simple question rather than a tired catch-phrase trotted out again and again.
Where I think there is common ground, Randy, is that the attributes a Christian would associate with Christ in Christianity, are oftentimes mirror images of what Jews ascribe to the Creator. Whereas, we attribute salvation, healing from sins, forgiveness, etc. to Christ, these very same attributes are associated by Jews to the Creator.

Now, I have read debates about this mirror image, and certainly there is rabbinic argument that they are not the same. But, if you read the Jewish prayer books, there is a very close alignment of attributes.

Also, if you carefully read the liturgy of the Tridentine Mass, most if not all of the prayers are Jewish in origin. In fact, the entire liturgy of the Mass has many, many echos from Judaism.
 
Where I think there is common ground, Randy, is that the attributes a Christian would associate with Christ in Christianity, are oftentimes mirror images of what Jews ascribe to the Creator. Whereas, we attribute salvation, healing from sins, forgiveness, etc. to Christ, these very same attributes are associated by Jews to the Creator.
Actually, Jesus and the Father are one. Consequently, it seems to me that those things which the Jews ascribe to God may be attributed to Jesus, also (though if we get too deep into trinitarian theology, I’ll have to back off of that to some degree :)).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

What I’m not so certain about, however, is just how intently the Jews are longing for the coming of a Messiah at this point. This is just my own $.02, but since that train left the station some time ago, I think the Jews have been downplaying that whole aspect of their religion because they do not want to answer any more questions about why they didn’t get on board.

But once you start to hold that the Messiah was not supposed to be what all of the pre-Jesus Jews expected him to be, then there are a lot of passages of the Hebrew scriptures that have to be completely re-examined (and explained away), because the Jews prior to Jesus were clearly looking for a Messiah…
Now, I have read debates about this mirror image, and certainly there is rabbinic argument that they are not the same. But, if you read the Jewish prayer books, there is a very close alignment of attributes.
Likewise, my Christian prayer books are largely full of Jewish psalms and prophets.
Also, if you carefully read the liturgy of the Tridentine Mass, most if not all of the prayers are Jewish in origin. In fact, the entire liturgy of the Mass has many, many echos from Judaism.
This seems natural, doesn’t it? After all, all of the history of the Jewish people was preparation for the coming of the Messiah whom we worship.

The Old Testament is the New concealed; the New Testament is the Old revealed.
 
This seems natural, doesn’t it? After all, all of the history of the Jewish people was preparation for the coming of the Messiah whom we worship.
It is natural, yes. What is perplexing is how the narratives of the two religions have taken different paths over the centuries, sometimes leading to tragic consequences, bitter disputes, vicious antagonisms, and the like, even worse.

Theologically, Judaism and Christianity have much more in common if studied closely.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top