Judaism and the Catholic Church

[Lapell]

Of course, if most Jews would ignore Christianity, of course they would not care to study what the Catholic Church teaches on anything. Although… Kaninchen still knows that we believe in an afterlife, so she knows at least one thing that our Church teaches, doesn’t she?

 

[Kaninchen]

So says the lady with almost 3,600 posts on a catholic forum.

I didn’t say that I wasn’t interested in the consequences of what people believe - a count of those almost 3600 posts would show that by far the vast majority would be found elsewhere than in theological dispute and not a few of them defending Muslims.

 

[Kaninchen]

What exactly dose your G-d think
is a righteous way of life for a
non Jew?

He has told you, O man, what is good,
And what the Lord requires of you:
Only to do justice
And to love goodness,
And to walk modestly with your God,
Then will your name achieve wisdom.

Micah 6:8

Would he hear the prayers of Catholics when we use Jesus name at the end of the prayer?
Or a rosary?

I can’t speak for God but I can’t imagine that he ignores people who pray earnestly.

Is it realy ok, for non Jew’s not to
convert to Judaism in your view?

We don’t think it at all necessary.

 

[Kaninchen]

What do you mean by “You don’t get Israel, of course” in the World-to-Come?
Also, if you followed Ben Masada’s threads, and according to his profile he is a Jew (unless of course he’d just make us believe he is one!), he contends that only “unlearnt” Jews would believe in an afterlife or in a resurrection of the dead… what would you answer him on that. I tried to come up with examples, but he turned them down. I wish I would have come out with solid and more accurate examples…

Two Jews 2*n opinions. I’ve not been following Ben’s threads, he does seem to have a lively interest in literary criticism.

 

[manualman]

I didn’t say that I wasn’t interested in the consequences of what people believe - a count of those almost 3600 posts would show that by far the vast majority would be found elsewhere than in theological dispute and not a few of them defending Muslims.

Well of course. Beliefs and consequences are inseparable. Theology informs worldview and worldview shapes behavior. You care more about christian theology than you think you do.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well of course. Beliefs and consequences are inseparable. Theology informs worldview and worldview shapes behavior. You care more about christian theology than you think you do.

In the sense that there are real world consequences of certain beliefs, obviously. A lot of people on the ‘news’ sections of CAF are interested in Obama’s Presidency and, obviously, in the consequences of what he believes - doesn’t mean they have a profound interest in his idea-structure.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I understand where you are coming from: but, You do what most protestants and non catholics do to history; Blame; humanity’s atrocities on the Body of Jesus Christ, which is the Catholic Church. Which is both fully human which can fall into temptation and fully divine. I realize you may not be addressing this aspect of the New Testament teaching that the body of Jesus Christ is the (Catholic) Church. The first 300 years of Jewish and Pagan Roman persecution of our Catholic Christian Saints and Martyrs recorded from history is what the Catholic faith is built upon next to Jesus being crucified.

When you state “We” persecuted the Jews, maybe a specific instance need be addressed. Speaking in generalities of such a topic, leads one to confuse what is the Catholic Church which is pure spotless, without wrinkle and Holy compared to her members who may of acted from their humanity, and not in the name of the Catholic Church.

I certainly do NOT blame humanity’s atrocities on the Catholic church which is the body of Christ!! I am saying that ‘we’ (some Catholics and other Christians, and some so-called Christian societies) unfairly persecuted Jews. This is a matter of history. This wasn’t the fault of the Catholic church but Jews can’t be blamed for seeing it that way. When I say ‘we’ I am identifying myself as a sinful person with those sinners of the past who shared my faith and didn’t live up to it.

It is certainly not historical fact that the Jews persecuted Christians for 300 years. At the beginning, some Jews(not all) persecuted the Jewish Christians. It appeared to them that these were Jews who were preaching blasphemy. St. Paul was one of these persecutors until God enlightened him on the road to Damascus. I think this early persecution ended even before the fall of Jerusalem in about 70 AD.

Even literature reflects persecution of the Jews in Christian countries. In Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice, Shylock is viewed as an avaricious and evil moneylender by the audience. Christian societies permitted the Jews to lend money since Christians at that time were not allowed to charge interest on money that was loaned. Then they looked down on the Jews. The play Fiddler on the Roof is set in a time of the pogroms in Russia where so-called Christians felt themselves justified in driving Jews out of their villages and/or killing them outright.

I am not Jewish by background or faith. My ethnic background is German and Irish. I don’t have any agenda. I just think that the past behavior of Christians has made it difficult for many Jews to have positive feelings about Christianity and this keeps many of them from even considering the claims of Christianity.

 

[Lapell]

The play Fiddler on the Roof is set in a time of the pogroms in Russia where so-called Christians felt themselves justified in driving Jews out of their villages and/or killing them outright.

Speaking of Fiddler on the Roof, the captain (or whatever) of the army seemed to say he was forced to follow the orders, both when they threw everything on the floor and broke a few things but spared the people except the revolutionary Jew who angry went to fight some of them, and when he came with the order that the Jews of Anatenka leave the place…

 

[Lapell]

What would have been the consequences had the captain refused to follow the orders? There must have been a few like him…

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Speaking of Fiddler on the Roof, the captain (or whatever) of the army seemed to say he was forced to follow the orders, both when they threw everything on the floor and broke a few things but spared the people except the revolutionary Jew who angry went to fight some of them, and when he came with the order that the Jews of Anatenka leave the place…

Similar things sometimes happened under Hitler when soldier would be ordered to do something but he would spare people when he could.

 

[Lapell]

( Ben Masada) contends that only “unlearnt” Jews would believe in an afterlife or in a resurrection of the dead… what would you answer him on that? I tried to come up with examples, but he turned them down. I wish I would have come out with solid and more accurate examples…

Kaninchen, what is it? Did I come with a question you’d rather not answer?

 

[Lapell]

Or maybe you think it would be useless with him?

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen, what is it? Did I come with a question you’d rather not answer?

I told you that I haven’t been following Ben’s threads so I can’t comment on anything that he’s written. Neither do I wish to get into some kind of second-hand dispute over some other Jew’s understanding of ‘whatever’.

 

[Lapell]

I told you that I haven’t been following Ben’s threads so I can’t comment on anything that he’s written. Neither do I wish to get into some kind of second-hand dispute over some other Jew’s understanding of ‘whatever’.

O.K., Kaninchen! I am afraid I am a bit slow to understand… all right! I accept your reasons. Shalom and Gut Shabbes!

 

[manualman]

In the sense that there are real world consequences of certain beliefs, obviously. A lot of people on the ‘news’ sections of CAF are interested in Obama’s Presidency and, obviously, in the consequences of what he believes - doesn’t mean they have a profound interest in his idea-structure.

Then shame on them. Knowing how someone comes to his conclusions is crucial to knowing how to address errors in the reasoning that leads to those conclusions. Obama is never going to change his position on abortion because people call him “evil” for them. If he changes, it will be because he learns the deeper lessons of history (namely that every genocide in history is preceded by dehumanizing rhetoric and that once this rhetoric is swept away there is no solid reason to deny the humanity of the unborn).

It is especially ironic when those opposed to abortion resort to dehumanizing rhetoric about Obama in order to oppose abortion. Don’t get me wrong, it’s entirely appropriate to call abortion what it is (murder). But even people doing evil things must be addressed as human being precious in the sight of God. That’s the hard road to walk in a culture war: warring against an invading evil culture without warring against those who have fallen for it.

For example, I’m one who opposed giving Obama the Notre Dame bully pulpit. But not because I hate him, because I can’t support his policies.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I certainly do NOT blame humanity’s atrocities on the Catholic church which is the body of Christ!! I am saying that ‘we’ (some Catholics and other Christians, and some so-called Christian societies) unfairly persecuted Jews. This is a matter of history. This wasn’t the fault of the Catholic church but Jews can’t be blamed for seeing it that way. When I say ‘we’ I am identifying myself as a sinful person with those sinners of the past who shared my faith and didn’t live up to it.

Gabriel of 12;
Secular History and biblical history records Jews being persecuted, providentially punished, conquered, by many different nations including Muslims and vice versa. I agree with you, that history records different peoples who were of the Christian faith persecuted Jews. But was it by divine design, or human frailty, not the Christian faith itself persecuted Jews.

Claire;
It is certainly not historical fact that the Jews persecuted Christians for 300 years. At the beginning, some Jews(not all) persecuted the Jewish Christians. It appeared to them that these were Jews who were preaching blasphemy. St. Paul was one of these persecutors until God enlightened him on the road to Damascus. I think this early persecution ended even before the fall of Jerusalem in about 70 AD.

Gabriel of 12;
The Jews were very influential to pagan Roman Emperor’s in the persecution of Christians past the 70 AD mark, including excommunication from prayer and synagogue’s, not to mention publicly disgracing Jesus and his followers by trying to prove Jesus a false prophet from 100 AD. But this is not the point, I had hoped to portray. Only that Christianity in the Catholic Church did not, will not ever, persecute her enemies but love them, History of the Catholic Martyrs and Saints already records this; Now peoples of the Christian faith persecuting their enemies is compared to “Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God”

Claire’
I am not Jewish by background or faith. My ethnic background is German and Irish. I don’t have any agenda. I just think that the past behavior of Christians has made it difficult for many Jews to have positive feelings about Christianity and this keeps many of them from even considering the claims of Christianity.

Gabriel of 12;
Come on Claire? Jews today fear Christians will blame them for killing Jesus and bring about another persecution which is a false pretense, nevertheless it is a reality. Our first Fathers, and apostles where of the Jewish faith as you mentioned earlier because God revealed himself to them. It is God’s will of whom he chooses to enter his eternal Kingdom. Yet, you are correct that example of Christianity lived is the best witness to any one not just Jews. The (Catholic Saints) holy men and women in the Catholic faith far exceeds those peoples of the Christian faith who persecuted their enemies.

 

[geometer]

So what explains why Judaism
is completely opposed to the Catholic Church?

Israel does…

 

[excaliber]

The reason one is interested in
Judaism, is because the OT and NT have differences in the way God interacts with man. God dose
not change, so anything inconsistent showing that God may
have changed from OT times, that
Christians cannot explain supports
judaisms claims.

However trying to pattern reality based of the OT probably won’t work in Judaisms.

Isreal has its hands full with the
Muslims,If God was backing Isreal’s military, why would there
be problems with muslims?

IN FACT!! All those countries in the
middle east that are enemies of Isreal are still there…why hasn’t
Isreal conquered them?
Why is it that America has to fight
to maintain order in a region that
Isreal should have control of?

If these people get a Nuke, they WILL use it on Isreal. So Isreal
should have handled the situation.
But since we have to get envolved
now these muslim countries hate
us and Isreal.

And another thing!
Germany focused a lot on destroying the Jews. Why didn’t Isreal by itself go and destroy German forces and save Isreal’s
own peoplè if God was behind Isreals army?

This is a major difference from the
OT. Infact where would Isreal be
without America which is a world power…not Isreal?

 

[koranist]

The reason one is interested in
Judaism, is because the OT and NT have differences in the way God interacts with man. God dose
not change, so anything inconsistent showing that God may
have changed from OT times, that
Christians cannot explain supports
judaisms claims.

However trying to pattern reality based of the OT probably won’t work in Judaisms.

Isreal has its hands full with the
Muslims,If God was backing Isreal’s military, why would there
be problems with muslims?

IN FACT!! All those countries in the
middle east that are enemies of Isreal are still there…why hasn’t
Isreal conquered them?
Why is it that America has to fight
to maintain order in a region that
Isreal should have control of?

If these people get a Nuke, they WILL use it on Isreal. So Isreal
should have handled the situation.
But since we have to get envolved
now these muslim countries hate
us and Isreal.

And another thing!
Germany focused a lot on destroying the Jews. Why didn’t Isreal by itself go and destroy German forces and save Isreal’s
own peoplè if God was behind Isreals army?

This is a major difference from the
OT. Infact where would Isreal be
without America which is a world power…not Isreal?

But its Jewish power in America thats forcing America to suport Israel blind and unconditionally. Weak argument. I think the question is: is today’s Judaism any different from the crowd that opposed Jesus in the Gospel? And why did they oppose him?

 

[excaliber]

But its Jewish power in America thats forcing America to suport Israel blind and unconditionally. Weak argument. I think the question is: is today’s Judaism any different from the crowd that opposed Jesus in the Gospel? And why did they oppose him?

No Christians want to support Isreal, and travel to lands that are
Christian holy places. I don’t know
a single Jew pushing Judaism to
Americans. Christians are the only
reason America cares about Isreal.

What you say makes no sence. Judaism has nothing to do with U.S. interests with Isreal.
Judaism is very cultural, and very we are chosen not you type mentality. Why would Jew’s in Judaism care what America dose,
If God was still using there nation
they would not need us.

Anyway, it seems that the Jew’s rejected Christ because he was so
different from what they expected
and wanted. He was so not involved with political affairs, he did not look like a military leader…
etc…etc…