Judaism as the "grain of wheat", Christianity as the "fruit"?

[FaithofAbraham]

No, you are missing the point. The first sentence says the child pays for the sin of the father, and the second says each one pays their own price. We don’t pay for the sins of Adam, because Jesus payed that price on the cross. We are now personally responsible and retribution comes from our own behavior.

If Adam’s curse for sin was physical death, and we are still physically dying, then we are still paying the price for our father Adam’s sin.

Are you forgeting the covenant God made with Abraham?

Genesis 17:4 “My covenant with you is this: you are to become the father of a host of nations.”

Israel and Judah include all believers in Jesus Christ, not just Jews.

Jesus as Messiah is the head of the Jewish House of Isaac and he has the power to make reconciliation with the Gentile House of Ishmael and share his promise of Abraham.

Thus Gentiles may be grafted into the House of Abraham through Jews and receive Abraham’s covenant of Israel the Promised Land, which is fulfilled in the end of time when there is no more sin and death and God is dwelling among us.

If most who say they are Jews still reject Jesus and the New Covenant, the New Covenant is not fully in effect for them at all, even one little bit. So we have a way to go, if we are expecting a lot more Jews to be saved from Hell because they deny Jesus and the New Covenant that saves them from it.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3190271:

God never qualified the command to Noah about doing strange things with it, He just said don’t eat it, period.

yet Jesus declared all food clean. Now if we say all food is clean yet it should not have blood in it, what does it mean exactly if blood is still in the cooked meat? is it about blood per se?

 

[ryanoneil]

Mat 5:17 * “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.”*

**The law and the prophets **is a short hand expression of the entire Old Testament. Jesus completely fulfilled the Mosiac Law and OT prophecies.

Luke 24:44-47 * He said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. And he said to them, "Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.*

The Greek word translated* fulfil* means “to make complete”. The New Covenant thus includes and concludes the Old Covenant; it both perfects it and transforms it. While sacrificial laws of the OT expired with the sacrifice of Jesus, the moral Law (Ten Commandments, etc) was retained AND refined.

Mat 5:21, 27, 43 “You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not . . . But I say to you . . .”

Mat 19:17-19 *He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’" *

Christ’s Torah has fulfilled the OT Torah. The power of God’s Spirit is necessary if we are to obey the Law and grow in holiness.

Rom 8:2-4 *For the **law of the spirit of life in Christ *Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit.

So Torah is still in effect, because all this hasn’t happened yet.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And here is where you are stuck. You’ve been given proof that Jesus has fulfilled ALL of the Old Testament. Jesus is the shift from the Old Testament Torah to His Torah. The fulfilled Torah.

Jesus is inaugurating a new and climactic phase in salvation hstory. He introduces the New Covenant standard of righteousness that surpasses the real, but unsufficient, righteousness of the Old Conenant. If you are not convinced up to this point Mat 5:20 should

*I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. *

Don’t forget that Jesus invited the scribes and Pharisees to recognize that the Mosaic Law was God’s temporary arrangement for the Jewish nation of Israel.

Mat 19:7-8 They (Pharisees) said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?” He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

The Mosaic Law was designed to establish and maintain Jewish Israel as a nation-state in Cannan. It was a means of drawing them closer to God by separating them from the sins of the Gentiles. Christ’s New Covenant, the Law written on their hearts, perfects the moral laws of the Old Covenant and brings the OT Covenant’s temporary and national phase to a close.

Jesus implements a new level of covenant “righteousness” that stretches beyond the boundaries of the Old Law in two directions. (1) Outwardly, the New Covenant is wider than the one nation of Israel; and emcompasses all nations in an international kingdom in His Church. All nations can now share in God’s blessing and become his covenant people. (2) Inwardly, the New Covenant penetrates to the heart; It reaches within to govern personal and provate life by a maximum standard of holiness.

Please read the rest of Matthew 5, and you will see Jesus speak of the law of the heart. And remember he is speaking to Jews. There is no seperate standard between Jew and Gentile. Also read chapters 6 and 7.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

yet Jesus declared all food clean. Now if we say all food is clean yet it should not have blood in it, what does it mean exactly if blood is still in the cooked meat? is it about blood per se?

I think you are just supposed to make sure everything living in blood is cooked enough to kill it so it’s dead before you eat it, and meat is cooked enough to have no blood oozing from it. Maybe there is really something to being a vampire, maybe you will take on bad qualities through blood of other creatures. If life is in the blood, where does the soul live? I don’t really know though, just speculating.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And here is where you are stuck. You’ve been given proof that Jesus has fulfilled ALL of the Old Testament. Jesus is the shift from the Old Testament Torah to His Torah. The fulfilled Torah.

But we need to apply what Jeremiah says about the New Covenant together with the NT. You have to interpret them both together to see when exactly everything has been fulfilled, and that’s only when the sour grape of Adam is removed and death and sin are gone forever. Or, when Satan is destroyed at the end of time.

Torah is there to reveal sin, we still have sin, so there is still Torah. When we have no more sin to reveal there will be no more Torah.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

And without sin the Law is dead. So when there is no more sin, when Satan is gone, there is no more Law.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

However Jesus said that Torah will not pass until heaven and earth pass. The New Covenant is not entirely into effect until that time when there is no more death for anyone, when children don’t pay for the sins of their parents, starting with Adam and his curse of physical death on all of us.

And the Torah, the seed par excellence, WON’T pass until the new earth comes, anymore than the seed, which has grown into a tree but which is still the seed GROWN, has passed!

The tree is the new covenant and is “entirely in effect” observable as the tree.

There IS no death anymore, where “death” means non-heaven or non-hell existence, and the eternal existence which is life in those two “places”.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

And also when Satan is defeated and there is no more sin directly before that.

And of course Satan HAS been utterly defeated as no sin can not now, in these last days, be unforgiven and cleave to the reconciled with the Body of Christ.

There IS no more sin, in that sin no longer “sticks”, which is the only way sin has any ultimate meaning. That some still do sin and choose not to accept forgiveness means only that time still exists, as in the “long view” sin IS presently “sent to hell” while those who cling to it haven’t yet been given their desire to go with it.

Forgiven sin is not sin.

 

[Valke2]

inJESUS;3190271:

It’s probable that people drank it as an aphrodisiac or thinking it would give them the power of whom it was taken from, since “vampire” fetishists still do that now. But it doesn’t say either way. God never qualified the command to Noah about doing strange things with it, He just said don’t eat it, period.

How is that probable?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

So those who say they are Jews need to follow Torah until Jesus says not to and we should beware of telling them otherwise.

They SHOULD follow “torah”, but as a cultural tradition in which only those parts which don’t contradict following Jesus should be followed.

I personally REALLY wish that we had more influence from Jewish Christians in the Church, as it would deepen and intensify the Church in such wonderous ways.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And the Torah, the seed par excellence, WON’T pass until the new earth comes, anymore than the seed, which has grown into a tree but which is still the seed GROWN, has passed!

The tree is the new covenant and is “entirely in effect” observable as the tree.

There IS no death anymore, where “death” means non-heaven or non-hell existence, and the eternal existence which is life in those two “places”.

The New Covenant ends sin and literal physical death for everyone and we live forever. That’s not all the way here yet, people are still dying, and sinning. We must follow OT prophecy because that’s where the idea comes from.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And of course Satan HAS been utterly defeated as no sin can not now, in these last days, be unforgiven and cleave to the reconciled with the Body of Christ.

There IS no more sin, in that sin no longer “sticks”, which is the only way sin has any ultimate meaning. That some still do sin and choose not to accept forgiveness means only that time still exists, as in the “long view” sin IS presently “sent to hell” while those who cling to it haven’t yet been given their desire to go with it.

Forgiven sin is not sin.

Satan makes me sin all the time, I don’t know about you. Are you entirely without sin and never sinning anymore as the New Covenant promises?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

How is that probable?

Or possible. Who knows. The vampire legend had to start somewhere, maybe it was then when God said not to eat blood.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

They SHOULD follow “torah”, but as a cultural tradition in which only those parts which don’t contradict following Jesus should be followed.

I personally REALLY wish that we had more influence from Jewish Christians in the Church, as it would deepen and intensify the Church in such wonderous ways.

You can observe Torah. With the stoning of the woman Jesus taught that no one is worthy to enforce the death penalties though. Since if you are to do it rightfully in the eyes of God, and you have secret sins of your own meriting your own death, then you need to kill yourself before you can kill anyone else. So death penalty is not really feasible anymore, unless it is done by Jesus or God.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
And the Torah, the seed par excellence, WON’T pass until the new earth comes, anymore than the seed, which has grown into a tree but which is still the seed GROWN, has passed!

The tree is the new covenant and is “entirely in effect” observable as the tree.

There IS no death anymore, where “death” means non-heaven or non-hell existence, and the eternal existence which is life in those two “places”.

The New Covenant ends sin and literal physical death for everyone and we live forever. That’s not all the way here yet, people are still dying, and sinning. We must follow OT prophecy because that’s where the idea comes from.

And we do “follow OT prophecy” as made correctly understandable by God in Jesus Christ through the actions of the Holy Spirit, so that our physical death is made “null and void”, as it IS now that we presently ARE to live forever, either in heaven or hell.

People only SEEM to die now, and people only SEEM to sin now, as death is presently (since Christ) a non-event and sin is presently a non-sticky-thing (pardon the euphemism) which we now have a refuge from (heaven) upon our reconciliation with the Body of Christ.

Before Christ heaven was simply not open as a place to go, and we had no hope of ever going anywhere but sheol (the holding place), not that there weren’t nicer “places” within sheol than others but it certainly wasn’t the beatific vision.

We mustn’t become “pharisaic” in our “hyper-legalism” and refuse the interpretation of the Church, which sees the OT as the never ending seed and the NT as the never ending tree.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
And of course Satan HAS been utterly defeated as no sin can not now, in these last days, be unforgiven and cleave to the reconciled with the Body of Christ.

There IS no more sin, in that sin no longer “sticks”, which is the only way sin has any ultimate meaning. That some still do sin and choose not to accept forgiveness means only that time still exists, as in the “long view” sin IS presently “sent to hell” while those who cling to it haven’t yet been given their desire to go with it.

Forgiven sin is not sin.

Satan makes me sin all the time, I don’t know about you. Are you entirely without sin and never sinning anymore as the New Covenant promises?

The New Covenant doesn’t promise “no sin” and “no sinning”, but that sin is rendered moot as to it’s effect on our eternal destiny.

The “apocalypse” is not the BEGINNING of the end times but the result ot the end times.

We have been in the “end times” since Jesus came. The revelation of the final destiny of the universe is simply that, the apocalypse, the revelation of the final destiny, by self willed decision, of our end “destination”, being either eternal heaven or eternal hell.

We are now in the time of the tree having come from the seed, and no longer in the time of the seed which will become the tree.

There is no “line” when the seed became the tree, but it WAS a very quick growth spurt, indeed!

(( That’s why we use analogies like “seed and tree”, by the way. So that the “organic wholeness” of the “transition” can be most accurately described. ))

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

You can observe Torah. With the stoning of the woman Jesus taught that no one is worthy to enforce the death penalties though.

Since if you are to do it rightfully in the eyes of God, and you have secret sins of your own meriting your own death, then you need to kill yourself before you can kill anyone else.

So death penalty is not really feasible anymore, unless it is done by Jesus or God.

Hmmmm… I’m thinking you’re wrong, but I’m not sure why. Let me think for a moment. A quick check of the rightful authority (the CCC) gives me…

No one may kill a person who could be reconciled with the Body of Christ unless another innocent person is in imminent danger of being killed by the willful behavior of the first person.

Jesus has not declared “defense of the immently endangered innocent” a sin.

Please see the Church’s position as regards the “Death Penalty” and “Just War”.

It’s nice to know that misinterpretations such as yours are resolvable by resort to proper authority.

 

[Valke2]

Keep in mind that there is a difference between enforcing a death penalty and killing someone who is threatening the life of an innocent.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Keep in mind that there is a difference between enforcing a death penalty and killing someone who is threatening the life of an innocent.

Absolutely, but “the death penalty edict” is simply a legal decision to have a person killed.

One forms and executes a “death penalty edict” the moment it is in your power to kill that intruder about to kill your daughter.

The length of time between the issuance and execution of the edict is not relevant to the validity of the ruling IF all the conditions of the necessity for it are in effect.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Absolutely, but “the death penalty edict” is simply a legal decision to have a person killed.

One forms and executes a “death penalty edict” the moment it is in your power to kill that intruder about to kill your daughter.

The length of time between the issuance and execution of the edict is not relevant to the validity of the ruling IF all the conditions of the necessity for it are in effect.

Defending your daughter against rape and death is not quite what I was referring to in regards to using Torah to execute someone for adultery or breaking Sabbath.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The New Covenant doesn’t promise “no sin” and “no sinning”, but that sin is rendered moot as to it’s effect on our eternal destiny.

Sure it does, what point is there is writing God’s Laws on our hearts if we are going to keep sinning? Heck people have known what is right and wrong since the beginning of time, they don’t need more Laws written on them to point out their sins. That’s what the Old Covenant does.

God’s Laws become written on our hearts when sin is gone forever, then that is all there is left, God’s goodness. So the New Covenant is our eternal destiny, and it’s not all the way here yet.