Judaism as the "grain of wheat", Christianity as the "fruit"?

[Valke2]

Absolutely, but “the death penalty edict” is simply a legal decision to have a person killed.

One forms and executes a “death penalty edict” the moment it is in your power to kill that intruder about to kill your daughter.

The length of time between the issuance and execution of the edict is not relevant to the validity of the ruling IF all the conditions of the necessity for it are in effect.

But there is/was a biblical distinction regarding the two. While Jesus may have abolished capital punishment he did not, as I understand it, abolish the right to kill in self defense or to protect an innocent. Or do I have this wrong?

 

[inJESUS]

I think you are just supposed to make sure everything living in blood is cooked enough to kill it so it’s dead before you eat it, and meat is cooked enough to have no blood **oozing **

from it. thats what am asking…if there is no blood oozing, does it mean there is no more blood in the cooked meat?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Defending your daughter against rape and death is not quite what I was referring to in regards to using Torah to execute someone for adultery or breaking Sabbath.

I agree, and as I said, only those parts of the OT which are not violations of the NT are valid, and SHOULD be kept and practiced, if individuals choose to, because being Jewish is not to be non-Christian. Being un-Christian IS to be non-Jewish, though, but you can’t coerce people to follow truth, of course.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Sure it does, what point is there is writing God’s Laws on our hearts if we are going to keep sinning?

You SEEM to be implying that “the new testament time” (the Kingdom of God) is not “here” until Jesus returns.

That is incorrect.

The point of writing God’s law on our hearts is to have the motive for choosing God over choosing sin come from within instead of without. From the “new temple” and not the “old temple”.

But inscribing the law on our hearts **has occured **for members of the Church, which has preceeded the “abolition” of sin itself.

Heck people have known what is right and wrong since the beginning of time, they don’t need more Laws written on them to point out their sins. That’s what the Old Covenant does.

God’s Laws become written on our hearts when sin is gone forever, then that is all there is left, God’s goodness. So the New Covenant is our eternal destiny, and it’s not all the way here yet.

That is incorrect.

So you ARE saying that we are not yet in the “New Testament” times?

Our free will will never be taken away, even when we are in heaven (or hell), but while on earth we will ALWAYS be allowed the choice of sin.

The New Covenant is not our destiny, as a covenant is a “marriage” mutual giving, and occurs BEFORE the consumation of the arrangement.

Heaven, or hell, is our DESTINY. The way we get to either of those places is by obedience, or otherwise, to that covenant.

A covenant does not “create” behavior, but it does obligate behavior. A covenant doesn’t MAKE you do something, it merely obligates you to do it under pain of the conditions of he covenant.

If the previous covenants MADE people “behave” correctly, the constant violations of the People of God under those covenants would not have happened.

The New Covenant is fully in force NOW, and has been since Jesus, and it does not “eliminate sin”, but rather obligates us to not sin under pain of God’s stated consequence.

(( By the way, even when we are in heaven, we will have free will, but like the angels “before” us we will not be able to choose to sin because all of our decisions will be “final and irrevocable” and we’ve already chosen God over not-God, which disallows us to choose not-God ever again eternally. ))

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

But there is/was a biblical distinction regarding the two. While Jesus may have abolished capital punishment he did not, as I understand it, abolish the right to kill in self defense or to protect an innocent. Or do I have this wrong?

Jesus did NOT abolish capital punishment. He simply made it VERY difficult to do it justifiably.

Please see the “Death Penalty” reference in the CCC.

All killing is killing, but some killing is justifiably performed as “non-murder to avoid murder”.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

thats what am asking…if there is no blood oozing, does it mean there is no more blood in the cooked meat?

I doubt it. If you ever saw Dances With Wolves, after killing it in the hunt they eat the raw Buffalo liver or heart, I can’t remember which, to absorb the spiritual strength of the animal. I think maybe that kind of black magic is what the law of blood is against.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The New Covenant is fully in force NOW, and has been since Jesus, and it does not “eliminate sin”, but rather obligates us to not sin under pain of God’s stated consequence.

If you say it is just another obligation then it is nothing different or special than the Old Covenant, just one more thing to reveal sin if we don’t live up to the obligation.

There are two phases to the New Covenant.

One is to provide a means of atonement for Jews who have no more Temple or priests. And also to provide it for Gentiles grafted in. We are in this phase now, we pray to God in the name of Jesus which is shorthand for saying that we acknowledge Jesus as High Priest who receives our prayer offerings and makes atonement for us with God. Just like Torah, only there are no animals, there are prayers. Jews still follow the rest of Torah except for capital punishment, and Gentiles follow those few laws stated in Acts, no murder, fornication, idolatry, etc.

The next phase eliminates death and sin, and thus Torah, at the end of time when heaven and earth pass. Then all is fulfilled.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus did NOT abolish capital punishment. He simply made it VERY difficult to do it justifiably.

Please see the “Death Penalty” reference in the CCC.

All killing is killing, but some killing is justifiably performed as “non-murder to avoid murder”.

But if you have yourself lusted in your heart after another woman, if you want to punish someone for physical adultery you have to offer yourself up for punishment too. If you have dreamed of killing someone you are angry at, you have to offer yourself up too if you want to execute a murderer. That’s how the Law is to be implemented, as Jesus clarified.

 

[ryanoneil]

Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
The New Covenant doesn’t promise “no sin” and “no sinning”, but that sin is rendered moot as to it’s effect on our eternal destiny.

Sure it does, what point is there is writing God’s Laws on our hearts if we are going to keep sinning? Heck people have known what is right and wrong since the beginning of time, they don’t need more Laws written on them to point out their sins. That’s what the Old Covenant does.

God’s Laws become written on our hearts when sin is gone forever, then that is all there is left, God’s goodness. So the New Covenant is our eternal destiny, and it’s not all the way here yet.

What point is there in forcing us to observe an Old Law that does not give the strength or the grace of the Spirit to fulfill it?

What point is there in forcing us to observe an Old Law that keep us in bondage because it cannot remove sin?

What is the point of enacting a New Law, at the very end of time, if no one is going to break it?

Do you believe in the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ?

What do you think Jesus actually accomplished when He came?

Why don’t you believe that *The Golden Rule * fulfills and releases the potential of the Old Law?

Why don’t you believe that the New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to us through faith in Christ?

Why don’t you believe that Holy Spirit is powerful enough to write the New Law on our hearts?

Why don’t you believe that the Holy Spirit can give us the grace to follow the New Law?

CCC 1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who “does not know what his master is doing” to that of a friend of Christ - “For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you” - or even to the status of son and heir.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

What point is there in forcing us to observe an Old Law that does not give the strength or the grace of the Spirit to fulfill it?

No one is forcing you to take Torah, it’s a decision you make when you become a Jew. You don’t have to do it. It’s ok to be a Gentile but you still have to follow those few laws stated in Acts, of no fornication, etc. if you want to be even a good Gentile.

But if you want to say you are a Jew then you must observe Torah and are binding yourself to that yoke of the Law and converting to that real form of Judaism. And if you don’t accept Jesus to boot then you have to follow Torah perfectly and never sin, since you have no High Priest to make atonement for you. Else you die in your sins.

Modern Judaism says you can be a Jew just by being born to a Jewish mother. You don’t have to observe Torah, don’t even have to believe in God. So someone who says they are a Jew that way and disregards Torah is following a form of Judaism that is no more than a fertility cult of worshiping the Jewish Womb.

So there is no such thing as a Jew unless that Jew at least tries to follow Torah. But like I said it’s ok to be a Gentile in Jesus too, that is perfectly fine.

What is the point of enacting a New Law, at the very end of time, if no one is going to break it?

The New Covenant isn’t really a Law, it is a new relationship and marriage between God and man through Jesus who makes atonement for us. In the end there won’t be any Laws to follow since our hearts will be free of sin, Satan being defeated forever, and what is left in our hearts will only be things that God wants us to do, pure goodness. Then the New Covenant will be entirely in effect.

Do you believe in the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ?

Yes, the first part of the New Covenant is accepting Jesus as High Priest who makes atonement for you.

Why don’t you believe that *The Golden Rule * fulfills and releases the potential of the Old Law?

It is still an aspect of Torah of the Old Covenant, part of the Law Jews had neglected that Jesus was reminding them to follow. If you don’t want your eye taken by someone, don’t take his. Nothing new, just neglected.

Why don’t you believe that Holy Spirit is powerful enough to write the New Law on our hearts?

Why don’t you believe that the Holy Spirit can give us the grace to follow the New Law?

Follow it completely? Then you would be perfect and sinless, are you saying that you are? Or that anyone on earth now is? God will make that happen for all who accept the New Covenant, but it hasn’t happened yet.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If you say it is just another obligation then it is nothing different or special than the Old Covenant, just one more thing to reveal sin if we don’t live up to the obligation.

The law of the New Covenant (in part) is not to reveal sin, as was the Mosaic Covenant, but to FORGIVE sin.

Your basic misunderstanding of the word “covenant” is the problem.

A covenant is a giving of one “person/group-of-people” to another in perpetuity (forever) with violation being rewarded with punishment and fidelity being rewarded by joy.

The FULLFILMENT of the New Covenant is heaven or hell, and the new heavens and earth (which basically means heaven), but the covenant itself is what we exist “within” now, and is what allows access to heaven (or hell) by the utter forgiveness of sins committed (and obverse for hell of course).

There are two phases to the New Covenant.

One is to provide a means of atonement for Jews who have no more Temple or priests. And also to provide it for Gentiles grafted in. We are in this phase now, we pray to God in the name of Jesus which is shorthand for saying that we acknowledge Jesus as High Priest who receives our prayer offerings and makes atonement for us with God. Just like Torah, only there are no animals, there are prayers. Jews still follow the rest of Torah except for capital punishment, and Gentiles follow those few laws stated in Acts, no murder, fornication, idolatry, etc.

The next phase eliminates death and sin, and thus Torah, at the end of time when heaven and earth pass. Then all is fulfilled.

No. The New Covenant is the last, final, and eternal covenant and has commenced with the incarnation. Actually, we agree here don’t we?

(( Check this out. ))

The “first phase” that you describe is the “pre-marriage” (betrothal) period of the covenant, and the “second phase” is the actual “marriage” (and life afterward).

Nothing is “final” until the marriage, but we must prepare ourselves for it, and the Mass is our preparation until the “Grand Mass”, the Apocalypse which is the “final” marriage, comes.

We are to keep ouselves “clean” while on the “old earth”, and now we have a REAL way to do so.

We agree actually. You say we now ask forgiveness of our sins now during the New Covenant, because we DO now sin and DO have a means for forgiveness, and that at the “next phase” sin and death will not be possible, and God’s law will be impossible to disobey thus obviating the need for any other law. I agree!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We agree actually. You say we now ask forgiveness of our sins now during the New Covenant, because we DO now sin and DO have a means for forgiveness, and that at the “next phase” sin and death will not be possible, and God’s law will be impossible to disobey thus obviating the need for any other law. I agree!

Yeah that’s what I believe too.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

But if you have yourself lusted in your heart after another woman, if you want to punish someone for physical adultery you have to offer yourself up for punishment too.

It is for God to punish sin. It is for “society” to punish behavior.

Society has the right to punish what it deems harmful, based on Christian priciples (in the best case).

If I am a Christian, I do indeed “offer myself” completely by the sacrament of reconciliation as “punishment” for my sins, and am forgiven of my sins (and awarded my temporal penance) such that I can act in society in “punishing” the “societally lawless”.

I can’t have any say in the condemnation of people’s souls, though, of course.

If you have dreamed of killing someone you are angry at, you have to offer yourself up too if you want to execute a murderer. That’s how the Law is to be implemented, as Jesus clarified.

You are considering only the case of a captured murderer in chains in court. I’m talking about the case of the imminent or certain danger to innocent life threatened by a non-innocent killer.

The Church (the Body of Christ) does not prohibit “killing to prevent killing of the innocent”, which could POSSIBLY (though highly unlikely) be a case such as you posit.

“Capital Punishment” means “Killing one rightfully due death”, which is not prohibited, but how one is “rightfully due death” is a very hard standard to meet, most especially “in court/arrested-custody” situations.

Killing in self/innocent defense IS “capital punishment”.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

No one is forcing you to take Torah, it’s a decision you make when you become a Jew. You don’t have to do it. It’s ok to be a Gentile but you still have to follow those few laws stated in Acts, of no fornication, etc. if you want to be even a good Gentile.

Amen!

But if you want to say you are a Jew then you must observe Torah and are binding yourself to that yoke of the Law and converting to that real form of Judaism. And if you don’t accept Jesus to boot then you have to follow Torah perfectly and never sin, since you have no High Priest to make atonement for you. Else you die in your sins.

The “yoke of the law” is only that which doesn’t violate Jesus’ commandments, of course. We agree on that, correct?

And yes indeed! You would have to never sin your whole life to achieve sure salvation, if you aren’t within the Church such that your sins are fully forgiven.

But, then again, it’s always and only up to God to decide if He’s been chosen by any particular person and saved.

 

[Valke2]

No where in Torah, Tradition or Tanakh, was it ever assumed that every Jew or any Jew had to perfectly follow Torah in order to be worthy of a share in the world to come. That’s a classic christian misunderstanding.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It is for God to punish sin. It is for “society” to punish behavior.

Society has the right to punish what it deems harmful, based on Christian priciples (in the best case).

If I am a Christian, I do indeed “offer myself” completely by the sacrament of reconciliation as “punishment” for my sins, and am forgiven of my sins (and awarded my temporal penance) such that I can act in society in “punishing” the “societally lawless”.

I can’t have any say in the condemnation of people’s souls, though, of course.

Well you aren’t supposed to punish anyone if you haven’t offered yourself up for punishment for your own wrongs, even if they are secret or only in your mind. You give up that right when you accept Jesus.

You are considering only the case of a captured murderer in chains in court. I’m talking about the case of the imminent or certain danger to innocent life threatened by a non-innocent killer.

The Church (the Body of Christ) does not prohibit “killing to prevent killing of the innocent”, which could POSSIBLY (though highly unlikely) be a case such as you posit.

“Capital Punishment” means “Killing one rightfully due death”, which is not prohibited, but how one is “rightfully due death” is a very hard standard to meet, most especially “in court/arrested-custody” situations.

Killing in self/innocent defense IS “capital punishment”.

If you want to follow Jesus perfectly then you don’t kill anyone unless you can proclaim yourself free of sins worthy of death yourself.

Now maybe you have repented and don’t sin anymore, and maybe you are not guilty and thus have the right.

But if you are secretly cheating on your wife and haven’t repented, or even lusting after someone other than your spouse if you are married, then kill an intruder in the heat of the moment before repenting of all that, you are just being a hypocrite since you are still guilty of adultery which is death under the Law.

Repentance through Jesus possibly frees you of that, but you better stay repented if you want to be in the Law Enforcement business or something like that, I think.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Amen!

The “yoke of the law” is only that which doesn’t violate Jesus’ commandments, of course. We agree on that, correct?

Yeah, as far as death penalty goes, but it’s all of Torah, like not wearing wool and cotton blends and all that. That’s what defines the difference between a Jew and a Gentile, Torah.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No where in Torah, Tradition or Tanakh, was it ever assumed that every Jew or any Jew had to perfectly follow Torah in order to be worthy of a share in the world to come. That’s a classic christian misunderstanding.

Of course not, but a Jew had to at least try to observe Torah else he isn’t even a Jew but just a wishful-thinking Gentile.

And then, if Torah isn’t followed perfectly you still need the High Priest to make atonement for you. Now Jesus is doing that, taking your prayers of repentance to God since there are no more animal offerings, at least right now.

So if you want to say you are a Jew and reject Jesus, maybe you can follow Torah perfectly and never sin and come out ok, I wouldn’t count on that though. But if you don’t follow it perfectly then there is no atonement but through Jesus. That’s why the NT says, the only way is through Jesus, any other way around is a thief trying to steal atonement.

 

[inJESUS]

I doubt it. If you ever saw Dances With Wolves, after killing it in the hunt they eat the raw Buffalo liver or heart, I can’t remember which, to absorb the spiritual strength of the animal. I think maybe that kind of black magic is what the law of blood is against.

so if we do not have “black magic” in mind but simply food, is it ok? because it either about blood per se, or about intensions…and you seem to lean toward intentions…right?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

so if we do not have “black magic” in mind but simply food, is it ok? because it either about blood per se, or about intensions…and you seem to lean toward intentions…right?

Maybe, or maybe there is some real harm in doing it, affecting our minds and spirits in ways we aren’t aware of. We know now at least we shouldn’t eat human blood because you can get HIV and a lot of things.

I think the idea behind everything is:

Don’t eat living or bloody animals to eat their life.

Don’t eat carrion or animals that eat it, like swine, to eat their death.

Don’t eat food sacrificed to idols.