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FaithofAbraham
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Does that apply to deciding there can be another way around the priest to make atonement for you, that it was just something hashed out by the rabbis?
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Valke2
Guest
Here’s how the Talmud works. There’s the Mishna which is the “original” oral Torah. This was repeated and memorized from sage to sage, student to student. Because it was based on memorization, there were many shorthand mneomics etc. that made it difficult to understand if you weren’t learning it from the beginning. So there’s a couple of centuries of commentary on the Mishna. Then there’s centuries of commentary on the commentary.
As the Temple was destroyed after revelation, anything that address post temple times in the Talmud is going to be based on rabbinic understanding of the issue. As to whether there are specific differences of opinion on this one issue, I don’t know the answer but can find out. I would be surprised if there were not.
As the Temple was destroyed after revelation, anything that address post temple times in the Talmud is going to be based on rabbinic understanding of the issue. As to whether there are specific differences of opinion on this one issue, I don’t know the answer but can find out. I would be surprised if there were not.
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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Valke2, sorry i got a bit lost. Do you mean that atonement now is a matter of personal opinions?
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FaithofAbraham
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I’m pretty sure that the core of the law is to only eat animals that are bled to death. So that you don’t eat blood, you don’t eat strangled animals, and you don’t eat carrion you find as roadkill etc. Also not to eat animals that eat carrion, like swine. Why it is really that way, I can only speculate as I have, in that maybe so you don’t take on the essence of life or death of an animal in your own soul, either symbolically or literally.
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FaithofAbraham
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That’s what I would like to see, a verse from the Tanach saying that atonement by way of priest is now an optional thing and no longer required.
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CalmDownWisWins
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Amen, amen to that indeed my brother, indeed, amen!
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Valke2
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No. In discussing the issue of attonement and Yom Kippur, I was stating that we have, through our sages and rabbis, as set forth in the Talmud, evolved the process of Yom Kippur services since the destruction of the Temple.
I have not studied this extensively, but I think one explanation given is that the requirements of the High Priest, etc., were there to make sure the Temple was properly sanctified and had not become accidently impure. So, much like the system of animal sacrifice, these obligations are simply impossible for us to do at this time.
Rambam clearly states:
"… Now that there is no Temple and no altar atonement there is
only repentance, and repentance atones for all sins…(Rambam,
Hilkhot Teshuva, 1:3)
Rabbi Solovetchik has this to say: "The day of Yom Kippur itself embodies the opportunity for complete atonement exactly as it did prior to the destruction of the Temple. When the repentance is proper, one attains the very same kapara [attonement through tradtional sacrifice] as the Jew who stood in the azara and responded “baruch shem kevod malchuto le’olam va’ed” upon hearing the ineffable Name recited by the Kohen Gadol.
There are many types of teshuva, and Hashem accepts them all if offered sincerely. As examples, there is teshuva tataa and teshuva ilaa, teshuva me’ahava and teshuva me’yira, teshuva bizman yalduto and a teshuva bimei ziknuto, among others.
At vidui, some sing a victory march, while others sway intently. The Yom Kippur of the Vilna Gaon was fundamentally different from the Yom Kippur of the Baal Shem Tov, the Baal Hatanya or the Maggid of Mezeritch.
The various “kippurim” may involve elements of joy or pain, ecstasy or fear, enthusiasm or terror. All of them are valid modes of repentance.
I’m straying here (a rariety, i know). You may find this link interesting. It is notes on a lecture Solovetchik gave on Yom Kippur. Not everything will be understandable or relevant to this topic, but it can at least give one the flavor of the relationship between Jews and their texts – which is highly dynamic and fluid while at the same time guided by tradition. mail-jewish.org/rav/yom_kippur_93.txt
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FaithofAbraham
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But still through the high priest God appointed in Jesus, he arrived in preparation for the destruction so Jews would still have a way for atonement. As it is they are trying to bypass the high priest God sent down to them. And in Judaism as a whole, often bypass God Himself given the high numbers of atheists and non-observers among Jews today.
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Valke2
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Ok. I’m happy to study up on it and get back to you. (and it is not “optional”) IF there’s a Temple then theirs attonement through the Temple).
One thing to consider is that Jews went through the rituals of Yom Kippur in synagouges even during the time of the Temple.
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FaithofAbraham
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Ok thanks. Remember that the law was given and practiced before there was any Temple.
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Valke2
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If that is the case, then I think you have your answer. Since it was practiced before the Temple, it can be practiced after the Temple.
btw, I think the discussion on post temple Yom Kippur service is in Mo’ed, Tractate Yoma. For some reason, I can’t access my online version of this right now.
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Valke2
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"and we will offer [instead of sacrifices] the calves of our
lips’ , (Hosea 14:3)
Gemara in Megilla 31b which recounts a conversation between Hashem and Abraham in the context of the “Brit Bein Habetarim”. Abraham asks how he was to know that G-d
will not forsake Israel if they sin. Hashem answered “in the merit of the [Temple] sacrifices” . Avraham insisted that this merit is fine
when these sacrifices are in existence: what was to happen after the destruction of the Temple? Hashem replied that if B’nei Yisrael learns the laws surrounding the sacrifices, he would consider their study as a virtual sacrificial offering. When we cannot offer sacrifices, we recite the halakhot pertaining to them as a substitute. The Rashi above therefore suggests that the avoda in musaf is a fulfillment of the same mitzvah.
Come and Listen. The first Yom Kippur after the Temple’s
destruction. The Jews could not conceive of the possibility of such a Yom Kippur: a Yom Kippur without the Kohen Gadol, sa’ir la’azazel, the Holyof Holies, a Yom Kippur based on one concept alone: individual repentance. The Jews were in pain and despair. How could there be a Yom Kippur without a bet hamikdash?
“Then rose Rabbi Akiva, the unswerving “optimist”, and he said: There is no need for such mournfulness and helplessness. Indeed, we have been bereft of the Temple and its divine dispensation of grace for the atonement
of sin. But we have lost only Kapara, atonement and penitence, but not Tahara, Purification. Indeed, we have been bereft of the ceremonies and sacrifices that are relevant to the transcendant act of the erasure of sin by supernatural grace and incomprehensible divine benevolence that alter the past and disrupt the causal chain. The attainment of Kapara will not
be as complete and perfect now as it was when the cult worship acts of the High Priest brought man into contact with transcendent and incomprehensible divinity. But we Jews have brought another message of Teshuva to man, that of Tahara. There is nothing transcendent, miraculous or non-rational about Tahara…The performance of Tahara is not directed at a transcendent divinity but at G-d, as our Father,
Companion and intimate Counsellor…this communion of G-d - man has not been affected by the loss of outward ceremonial rites”
lips’ , (Hosea 14:3)
Gemara in Megilla 31b which recounts a conversation between Hashem and Abraham in the context of the “Brit Bein Habetarim”. Abraham asks how he was to know that G-d
will not forsake Israel if they sin. Hashem answered “in the merit of the [Temple] sacrifices” . Avraham insisted that this merit is fine
when these sacrifices are in existence: what was to happen after the destruction of the Temple? Hashem replied that if B’nei Yisrael learns the laws surrounding the sacrifices, he would consider their study as a virtual sacrificial offering. When we cannot offer sacrifices, we recite the halakhot pertaining to them as a substitute. The Rashi above therefore suggests that the avoda in musaf is a fulfillment of the same mitzvah.
Come and Listen. The first Yom Kippur after the Temple’s
destruction. The Jews could not conceive of the possibility of such a Yom Kippur: a Yom Kippur without the Kohen Gadol, sa’ir la’azazel, the Holyof Holies, a Yom Kippur based on one concept alone: individual repentance. The Jews were in pain and despair. How could there be a Yom Kippur without a bet hamikdash?
“Then rose Rabbi Akiva, the unswerving “optimist”, and he said: There is no need for such mournfulness and helplessness. Indeed, we have been bereft of the Temple and its divine dispensation of grace for the atonement
of sin. But we have lost only Kapara, atonement and penitence, but not Tahara, Purification. Indeed, we have been bereft of the ceremonies and sacrifices that are relevant to the transcendant act of the erasure of sin by supernatural grace and incomprehensible divine benevolence that alter the past and disrupt the causal chain. The attainment of Kapara will not
be as complete and perfect now as it was when the cult worship acts of the High Priest brought man into contact with transcendent and incomprehensible divinity. But we Jews have brought another message of Teshuva to man, that of Tahara. There is nothing transcendent, miraculous or non-rational about Tahara…The performance of Tahara is not directed at a transcendent divinity but at G-d, as our Father,
Companion and intimate Counsellor…this communion of G-d - man has not been affected by the loss of outward ceremonial rites”
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Valke2
Guest
While in the days of the Temple the avoda service was perceived as being synonymous with the Yom Kippur experience, today our own cognitive association with Yom Kippur is that of a day devoted entirely to prayer. According to the Rav, prayer on Yom Kippur takes on an entirely different complexion than prayer during the rest of the year. The essence of the day of Yom Kippur must be transformed into a “yom tefila” a day of prayer. To accomplish this transformation, the rabbis instituted the Ne’ilah
service, the purpose of which is to allow us to request that all the previous prayers of the day be accepted before G-d.mail-jewish.org/rav/yom_kippur.txt
service, the purpose of which is to allow us to request that all the previous prayers of the day be accepted before G-d.mail-jewish.org/rav/yom_kippur.txt
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FaithofAbraham
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This refers to House of Israel not House of Judah, Israel was scattered to the Gentile nations. The Jewish religion of the Gentiles is based on Jesus who makes our atonement through prayers.
Hosea 13:16-14:2 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Hi Valke2. Thank you for the explaination of Jewish religious development after the destruction of the Temple. Unfortunately I didn’t understand alot of what you said. I couldn’t help seeing the similairities of what the Jewish leaders did and what Jesus did.
Peace,
Ryan
Peace,
Ryan
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Valke2
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That’s ok. I didn’t understand some of it either.Hi Valke2. Thank you for the explaination of Jewish religious development after the destruction of the Temple. Unfortunately I didn’t understand alot of what you said. I couldn’t help seeing the similairities of what the Jewish leaders did and what Jesus did.
Peace,
Ryan
Peace.
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