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Nicolas
Guest
aaronjo,
Would you please swear to God that you are not a muslim…
Would you please swear to God that you are not a muslim…
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sambos671
Guest
Jews believe in understanding Torah through Talmud. There are many interpretations of Talmud and how it applies. Many different schools of thought. A closer contemporary school of thought to Jesus was the Hillel school or academy and many have differing view of what it actually taught.
Each of the Gospels are from different peoples and perspectives. It is possible that Matthew used Mark as a template and then expounded on area’s he felt needed to be stressed. The closest the Gospels got to (a more modern) consept of objectivity is in Luke. But during that period of time that was not how people wrote books. Oration was the Greek and the Roman emphasis on relaying information. Matthew wanted to reach Jewish christians from their understanding and emphasised those points. Mark was just relaying what Peter told him about his experiences. As can be know today in a room of 4 people watching the same event we can get 4 perspectives. This is the Gospels. Also the Gospels had specific purpose of getting across the main points of what Jesus was teaching. Who was Jesus? He claimed to be the son of God. He claimed to be God. He was also an itenerant Rabbi traveling from town to town teaching Torah. Jesus reading of Isiah the prophet claimed that he was the fulfillment of God’s promise to Israel. He had tassles on the four corners of his garment (which the woman with the bleeding problem touched not a hem). He also claimed that not yod of the Torah would pass away either but was brilliantly able to summerize it in such a way to follow with 2 points. While the rest of the Jews were working on creating a hedge of protection around Torah according to the Hillel academy. These consepts are simple.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
No, as your quote says, he tells more detail in certain parts. It is silent as to whether “he knew more.” Although that is also possible, but your point?
The Church has already answered it. St. John’s, for instance, presupposes the Synoptics.
Interesting. Doesn’t the Quran say anything about multiple witnesses?
It’s to make it distinct. Matthew is not Mark.
No. Read Isaiah 50:6; 53:2-11.
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Angelos
Guest
Even this sort of discussion proves that you are that Muslim guy/girl who has been banned here several times with multiple nicks. However, this kind of a strategy (picking up a false religious identity) I expect only from Muslims, not from Jews.
Your theories are based on your personal presumptions and your uncanny eagerness to reach conclusions before presenting your inferences. Thus, you first suggest your conclusions and then make up inferences to support them.
Let’s see how many times you reluctantly confess that what you quote as hard evidence is actually a probability (check the words I underlined in your post to see this). After the presentation of all these possibilities, what do we get as a consequence? NOTHING! Your conclusions derived from your personal interpretation are not valid because you are neither a historian nor a scholar.
More to the point, these quotations taken from the NT to illustrate the natural textual differences between Matthew and Mark’s Gospel are impertinent to this thread. Please stick to our topic or open a new thread to discuss the alleged textual problems of the NT. Interestingly, you are still evading my questions about the common tenets Christianity and Judaism share even though those questions are more relevant to this thread than your textual analysis of the few diffrences in the NT manuscripts!
Jews are not interested in the authenticity of the Gospels as much as Muslims, who ridiculously suppose that the differences between the Gospels and some supposed problems in the ancient manuscripts will automatically prove Mohammad’s (false) prophetic mission. This kind of an approach from you to the Gospels actually gives you away and underlines your dishonest act of pretense (false identity).
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
I wonder if Muhammad will quote Mark 8:38 concerning Aaronjo.
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Angelos
Guest
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aaronjo
Guest
In reponse to my Post #146, Isa Almisry and Angelos replied:
I can back-up with data for my whole position. For now let’s start with the first part of my post. I said (and I qoute myself):
“Jesus’ teaching in Mark 7 exalts the word of God over “the tradition of the elders” and sees defilement as a matter of the heart, not of unclean foods. Yet opposition mounts.”
“Scribes charge that Jesus is possessed by Beelzebul (Mark 3:22). His relatives think him “out of his mind” Mark 3:21).**”*
Why? Becasue it was not easy to deny his message which was nothing but revival of Holy Torah and the Prophets and calling people to act on the Will of G_d. Be men of actions and not just of words.
"Even Jesus’ kinship is with those who do the will of God, in a new eschatological family, not even with mother, brothers, or sisters by blood ties (Mark 3:31-35; cf Mark 6:1-6). But all too often his own disciples do not understand Jesus (Mark 4:13, 40; 6:52; 8:17-21). The fate of John the Baptist (Mark 6:17-29) hints ominously at Jesus’ own passion (Mark 9:13; cf Mark 8:31)."
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PW2.HTM
** [Even] natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of his heavenly Father [G_d of all] belongs to his true family.**
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVL.HTM#$31L
The questrion is how can people/society, follow the Will of G_d at individual and collective level?
To implement a or the Complete Code of Life, given by G_d, it requires political power/power of enforcement too to implement laws that relates to collective level of any civilised human society…i.e. criminal and civil laws.
In the absence of such political power, man can only follow certain part of G_d’s Law but not the whole because not all people live in caves without communication or interactions.
Ultimate Peace cannot be acheived in a lawless society or in a society governed by un-G_dly laws/man-made laws.
Man-made laws are imperfect based on half or complete void of Wisdom/Rationale because man cannot see what G_d (who created everything) sees/knew.
Then how can someone establish the Kingdom of G_d on Earth?
The Kingdom of G_d is something where all laws and rules supposed to be based on G_d’s Will (Law).
Obviosuly it is foolish to think /expect a Roman pagan Law/Rule in the Kingdom of G_d.
Can you imagine that Jesus was happy with secular or pagan Roman’s laws or the attitude of Scribes and the Pharisees?
If he was not happy, then who would dare to IMPLEMENT what is in fact RIGHT and LAWFULL in the eyes of G_d?
Was it not a duty or prime mission of people like Moses or John or Jesus? Or were these Holy Men of G_d sent to the World (from G_d) to mere amusing people with (the G_d assigned) Miracles, Wonders and Signs , like in a circus?
But when these Men of G_d tried to enforce the Law of G_d (obviosuly by starting their missions by first calling/preachng their own close ones towards G_d/in other words everything starting from the scratch) and by even using the Miracles and Wonders and Signs (unusual abilities given by G_d to them) what would you expect next?
Obviously the Ruling Party of their period will first oppose these Men of G_d with the help of their puppets (such as Scribes and the Pharisees) because implement of Law of G_d means end of their existing Rule. So either the Ruling Party must submit to the Law of G_d or ready to face the Wrath of G_d and godly people. Submisiion to the Law of G_d means they cannot enjoy worldly pleasures anymore as much as they have been.
So naturally they will try to kill the Message of G_d first. If they fail in doing so, then they will even try to kill the Messenger(s).
Because a Messenger cannot be seperated from his Message. You cannot follow merely the Message and not respect the Messenger who by putting his life in a dangerous situation, conveys the Message of G_d in words and through practice.
So it not surprising to know that the Ruling class such as (Scribes and Pharisees) have been killing the Prophets of G_d.
Why they killed despite they were their own people. Were those Prophets criminals? What was their crime?
I can go on and on… but I think this much explanation is enough for people who have a working mind in their heads.
What I said in my post#146 was a brief summary based on what I percieved as FACT. Unfortunatley this FACT is almost lost in the myths created by different flavours of Christianity and others who hate Judaic Law/actual Mission of Jesus.
I can back-up with data for my whole position. For now let’s start with the first part of my post. I said (and I qoute myself):
***" In Mark, Jesus is portrayed as immensely popular with the people in Galilee during his ministry (Mark 2:2; ⇒ 3:7; 4:1). He appoints twelve disciples to help preach and drive out demons, just as he does (Mark 3:13-19)."
“Jesus’ teaching in Mark 7 exalts the word of God over “the tradition of the elders” and sees defilement as a matter of the heart, not of unclean foods. Yet opposition mounts.”
“Scribes charge that Jesus is possessed by Beelzebul (Mark 3:22). His relatives think him “out of his mind” Mark 3:21).**”*
Why? Becasue it was not easy to deny his message which was nothing but revival of Holy Torah and the Prophets and calling people to act on the Will of G_d. Be men of actions and not just of words.
"Even Jesus’ kinship is with those who do the will of God, in a new eschatological family, not even with mother, brothers, or sisters by blood ties (Mark 3:31-35; cf Mark 6:1-6). But all too often his own disciples do not understand Jesus (Mark 4:13, 40; 6:52; 8:17-21). The fate of John the Baptist (Mark 6:17-29) hints ominously at Jesus’ own passion (Mark 9:13; cf Mark 8:31)."
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PW2.HTM
** [Even] natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of his heavenly Father [G_d of all] belongs to his true family.**
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVL.HTM#$31L
The questrion is how can people/society, follow the Will of G_d at individual and collective level?
To implement a or the Complete Code of Life, given by G_d, it requires political power/power of enforcement too to implement laws that relates to collective level of any civilised human society…i.e. criminal and civil laws.
In the absence of such political power, man can only follow certain part of G_d’s Law but not the whole because not all people live in caves without communication or interactions.
Ultimate Peace cannot be acheived in a lawless society or in a society governed by un-G_dly laws/man-made laws.
Man-made laws are imperfect based on half or complete void of Wisdom/Rationale because man cannot see what G_d (who created everything) sees/knew.
Then how can someone establish the Kingdom of G_d on Earth?
The Kingdom of G_d is something where all laws and rules supposed to be based on G_d’s Will (Law).
Obviosuly it is foolish to think /expect a Roman pagan Law/Rule in the Kingdom of G_d.
Can you imagine that Jesus was happy with secular or pagan Roman’s laws or the attitude of Scribes and the Pharisees?
If he was not happy, then who would dare to IMPLEMENT what is in fact RIGHT and LAWFULL in the eyes of G_d?
Was it not a duty or prime mission of people like Moses or John or Jesus? Or were these Holy Men of G_d sent to the World (from G_d) to mere amusing people with (the G_d assigned) Miracles, Wonders and Signs , like in a circus?
But when these Men of G_d tried to enforce the Law of G_d (obviosuly by starting their missions by first calling/preachng their own close ones towards G_d/in other words everything starting from the scratch) and by even using the Miracles and Wonders and Signs (unusual abilities given by G_d to them) what would you expect next?
Obviously the Ruling Party of their period will first oppose these Men of G_d with the help of their puppets (such as Scribes and the Pharisees) because implement of Law of G_d means end of their existing Rule. So either the Ruling Party must submit to the Law of G_d or ready to face the Wrath of G_d and godly people. Submisiion to the Law of G_d means they cannot enjoy worldly pleasures anymore as much as they have been.
So naturally they will try to kill the Message of G_d first. If they fail in doing so, then they will even try to kill the Messenger(s).
Because a Messenger cannot be seperated from his Message. You cannot follow merely the Message and not respect the Messenger who by putting his life in a dangerous situation, conveys the Message of G_d in words and through practice.
So it not surprising to know that the Ruling class such as (Scribes and Pharisees) have been killing the Prophets of G_d.
Why they killed despite they were their own people. Were those Prophets criminals? What was their crime?
I can go on and on… but I think this much explanation is enough for people who have a working mind in their heads.
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Angelos
Guest
You confess that your so-called facts are based on your personal perception. LOL
Later you claim that your supposed fact was lost to be eventually found by you. We see that you create new myths and legends to replace the fact with your suppositions.
Your theory is debunked by the FACT stated in the Gospels that Jesus did not want to start a revolutionary (military) campaign against the authorities. None of the Evangelists even implied that Jesus introduced Himself as a political or military figure aiming to oppose the Roman government.
Jesus does not say that observing the Torah precisely and trying to establish an earthly Kingdom are equal to doing the will of God. You are inventing new ridiculous claims by ignoring Jesus’ overt statements in all of the four Gospels and deliberately twisting Jesus’ message.
Jesus said His Kingdom was not from this world. He evaded His Jewish followers who wanted to make Him their new King. Jesus also commanded Jews to give to Ceasar what belonged to Ceasar, endorsing the jurisdiction of earthly and pagan rulers.
Jesus wrought His miracles so that people could believe in Him and have eternal life in His name.
The way you approach the notion of miracle is highly Islamic. Accordingly, I must remind you that pagan Mohammad could perform not a single miracle.
Belief only. Jesus expected people to have faith in Him and His Word.
What does this prove again? NOTHING! When I read your posts, I feel like watching a little child draw many circles with no purpose.
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aaronjo
Guest
So lastly you say: “Jesus expected people to have faith in Him and His Word”.
Well if:
**"Even Jesus’ kinship is with those who do the will of God, not even with mother, brothers, or sisters by blood ties.
But all too often his own disciples do not understand Jesus The fate of John the Baptist hints ominously at Jesus’ own passion **
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PW2.HTM
in other words:
[Even] natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of his heavenly Father [G_d of all] belongs to his true family,
then how someone can follow or do the Will of G_d without following the Laws and Commandments?
And do you know if Jesus ever asked people to follow the Commandments if they want Eternal life? Yes or No?
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Angelos
Guest
People must follow Jesus and His Gospel if they want to have eternal life:
Mark 10:29-30
Jesus answering said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time: houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.
John 15:4-7
Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Jesus fulfilled the law. He did not preach the Law. When asked what was the greatest of the commandments he stated the we are to love God with the whole of ourselves, and to love one another as we love ourselves.
Jesus told them not to take pride in being sons of Abraham as the God could raise sons of Abraham for the stone.
When people that he had grown up with Family and friends rejected his message he said from the gospel of St Luke 4:24
"And he said, “Amen, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own native place.”
so the fact that the majority of those that heard him rejected him is of no surprise.
The Romans cared not for what Jesus Preached as he said nothing about disobedience to the civil laws of those governing Israel. It was the scribes and Pharisees that had the Problem for what he preached threatened there power.
cont;
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
cont;
Also you have made many references to the Gospel of St Mark just to clarify things the oldest copies for mark found contain all 16 chapters and conclude the women going to the Tomb and fining as stated in the Gospel an young man dressed in white sitting that who stated that Jesus had raised for the dead and to go tell Peter and the disciples for he was to meet the In Galilee.
You are correct in I do not believe Jesus set out to form a new religion nor do I think that that was the Goal of the Apostles or St Paul. That is what happened when the Jews rejected that teaching of Christ and the pagan Gentiles excepted it. They could not become Jewish nor as St Paul said It it required for the to be subjected to the Jewish customs.
I as a Christian have great Love for all peoples of the world and those of the House of Israel hold a special place of respect to me and I believe most true Christians. For it is through them that God reveled Himself to man and through them that He Gave us our Savior Jesus, Son of the Most High, So that All Nations may Come to know the Love of God.
I often wonder myself if we Christian should not no more of and Celebrate the Jewish feast and Holiday. But I also now that it is through Christ that I am able to hope for Gods Mercy and no Holiday will give that to me.
You Are so very wrong for Christianity is not the paganization for the Jewish faith, it is the conclusion of the Jewish faith. Look back through the Torah and you will find that with Abraham what the Hebrew people believed and how the worshiped God changed, with the coming of Mose again it Changed. If through these great men of faith God reveled paths for man to come closer to true worship of him Why would the Coming of the Son of God not bring about even great changes to are religious life would be.
Also you have made many references to the Gospel of St Mark just to clarify things the oldest copies for mark found contain all 16 chapters and conclude the women going to the Tomb and fining as stated in the Gospel an young man dressed in white sitting that who stated that Jesus had raised for the dead and to go tell Peter and the disciples for he was to meet the In Galilee.
You are correct in I do not believe Jesus set out to form a new religion nor do I think that that was the Goal of the Apostles or St Paul. That is what happened when the Jews rejected that teaching of Christ and the pagan Gentiles excepted it. They could not become Jewish nor as St Paul said It it required for the to be subjected to the Jewish customs.
I as a Christian have great Love for all peoples of the world and those of the House of Israel hold a special place of respect to me and I believe most true Christians. For it is through them that God reveled Himself to man and through them that He Gave us our Savior Jesus, Son of the Most High, So that All Nations may Come to know the Love of God.
I often wonder myself if we Christian should not no more of and Celebrate the Jewish feast and Holiday. But I also now that it is through Christ that I am able to hope for Gods Mercy and no Holiday will give that to me.
You Are so very wrong for Christianity is not the paganization for the Jewish faith, it is the conclusion of the Jewish faith. Look back through the Torah and you will find that with Abraham what the Hebrew people believed and how the worshiped God changed, with the coming of Mose again it Changed. If through these great men of faith God reveled paths for man to come closer to true worship of him Why would the Coming of the Son of God not bring about even great changes to are religious life would be.
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aaronjo
Guest
To add more, as you seem did not understand what I explained.
How can people follow Jesus and His Gospel?
To follow him, first you need to UNDERSTAND what he is expecting from you…what INFACT he taught…and then on what he EMPHASISED.
Here is a hint for you:
**Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. **
Did he stop here? No. Let’s see what he said further:
**Matthew 5
21 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’
22 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.**
He actually added more harshness on the compliance of the Law.
So, before, killing someone made the killer liable to judgment but from and after Jesus onwards…simply getting angry by a person with his brother is a good enough guilt/crime to be judged…and not only that …simply calling ‘Raqa/Raca’, someone should be answerable to the Sanhedrin and…not only that, if you call someone “You fool” it will put you in the FIERY GEHENNA. And I am sure you know what does GEHENNA means.
Let me qoute one of your Catholic Bibles’ explanation on the terms/expressions used here:
21 **“Shall be in danger of the judgment”… **That is, shall deserve to be punished by that lesser tribunal among the Jews, called the Judgment, which took cognizance of such crimes.
22 **“Raca”… **A word expressing great indignation or contempt. Shall be in danger of the council … That is, shall deserve to be punished by the highest court of judicature, called the Council, or Sanhedrim, consisting of seventy-two persons, where the highest causes were tried and judged, which was at Jerusalem.
22 **“Thou fool”… **This was then looked upon as a heinous injury, when uttered with contempt, spite, or malice: and therefore is here so severely condemned. Shall be in danger of hell fire-- literally, according to the Greek, shall deserve to be cast into the Gehenna of fire. Which words our Saviour made use of to express the fire and punishments of hell.
Did Jesus change the Law? No.
Infact, he not only emphasis on the Law but added additional hardship to the Law. And this what can be called the ‘FULLFILMENT of LAW’. Oh… yeah… and that is what he told you that:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. --Matthew 5:17
So, what Jesus is telling you here is very very clear, simple and straight forward and it supports my stance.
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inJESUS
Guest
what did Jesus fulfill Aaronjo?
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Not the Quran.
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aaronjo
Guest
You mean Mark 14:71 ?
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sambos671
Guest
The Torah. The sayings of the Prophets. Man’s redemption. Just to name a few.
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aaronjo
Guest
Like how Peter did in Mark 14:71 ?
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aaronjo
Guest
You mean picking up a false religious identity is not same as Peter’s cursing and swearing and denying by saying: "I do not know this man [Jesus] about whom you are talking - Mark 14:71) ? Is this in Christian Bible or Moslem’s Koran?
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
I don’t know, are you going to confess the Lord and be restored (see the end of St. John’s Gospel)?
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