Judaism / Christianity

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aaronjo said:
Though the following reply by ‘Verus Israel’ is from an another thread, I think it will help people like Angelos:
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No, dear Islamic Jew, sorry. Your reference to the post of another Jew on this forum fails to answer my questions.

Verus Israel presents his personal views on the relation between Jews and Muslims from the cultural and historical perspectives.

**Religious beliefs do not factor into it for me. **

This statement belongs to Verus Israel too.

The same person also said:

** In fact, many Jewish and Muslim historians have noted how Judaism played a formative role in shaping Islam** and Islam subsequently played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism.

This is another way of saying that Islam is a copy of Judaism in a bad sense.

I can see nothing in Verus Israel’s post that endorses Islamic tenets or that makes a comparison/contrast between Judaism and Christianity.

Your reference makes no sense.
 
Angelos said:
The same person also said:

** In fact, many Jewish and Muslim historians have noted how Judaism played a formative role in shaping Islam** and Islam subsequently played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism.

This is another way of saying that Islam is a copy of Judaism in a bad sense.
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But for your surprise, he also said in the very quote you bravely copied:

"…and Islam subsequently played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism."

LOL Did you notice this part of his statement?

Is this too an another way of saying that Judaism is a copy of Islam in a bad sense, if I were to buy your line of argument?
 
aaronjo said:
But for your surprise, he also said in the very quote you bravely copied:

"…and Islam subsequently played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism."

LOL Did you notice this part of his statement?

Is this too an another way of saying that Judaism is a copy of Islam in a bad sense, if I were to buy your line of argument?
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I definitely noticed that part of the quote.

"…and Islam subsequently played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism."

This cannot mean that Judaism is a copy of Islam in a bad sense since this quoted statement underlines the fact that Judaism existed prior to Islam, which allegedly played an important role in shaping Judaism’s already CONTINUING DEVELOPMENT. Logically speaking, it is impossible for Judaism to be a bad copy of a religion that is implied to have come into existence when Judaism had already been present. How is it possbile for Islam to support the continuing development of a religion that does not exist before it???
 
Angelos said:
I definitely noticed that part of the quote.

**"…and Islam subsequently played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism
**."

This cannot mean that Judaism is a copy of Islam in a bad sense since this quoted statement underlines the fact that Judaism existed prior to Islam, which allegedly played an important role in shaping Judaism’s already CONTINUING DEVELOPMENT. Logically speaking, it is impossible for Judaism to be a bad copy of a religion that is implied to have come into existence when Judaism had already been present. How is it possbile for Islam to support the continuing development of a religion that does not exist before it???
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By saying ‘CONTINUING DEVELOPMENT’ simply means Judaism was not really completed in full form prior to the emergence of Islamic relgion.

You need to check the definition of ‘DEVELOPMENT’. If something already exists in full-fledge form it doesn’t require further development.

So as Islamthroughout history “played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism” on the one hand, I wonder why Christianity (which also existed during the last 1400 years) did not play any role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism?

If you think Christianity too did play a role, then it must be not in developing Judaism but destroying it with Paul’s theology/polytheism.

Did you see the contrast here? One (Islam) being helpfull in continuing development and other (Christianity) deconstructing/demolishing it.
 
aaronjo said:
By saying ‘CONTINUING DEVELOPMENT’ simply means Judaism was not really completed in full form prior to the emergence of Islamic relgion.

You need to check the definition of ‘DEVELOPMENT’. If something already exists in full-fledge form it doesn’t require further development.

So as Islamthroughout history “played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism” on the one hand, I wonder why Christianity (which also existed during the last 1400 years) did not play any role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism?
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On another thread we showed it had. For one thing, the rabbis chose their canon AFTER and in REACTION to the rise of the Church.
If you think Christianity too did play a role, then it must be not in developing Judaism but destroying it with Paul’s theology/polytheism.
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Did you see the contrast here? One (Islam) being helpfull in continuing development and other (Christianity) deconstructing/demolishing it.
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Aren’t your putting words into Verus’ mouth (or keyboard)?
 
aaronjo said:
By saying ‘CONTINUING DEVELOPMENT’ simply means Judaism was not really completed in full form prior to the emergence of Islamic relgion.

You need to check the definition of ‘DEVELOPMENT’. If something already exists in full-fledge form it doesn’t require further development.
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Now playing on words to defend Islam?? LOL A moderate Jew making efforts to defend Islam through cheap games?? This IS something indeed!

So you simply and naively believe that Judaism was incomplete before Islam? You should ask Verus Israel to confirm your personal interpretation of his statements.

Before asking ME to check the meaning of the word DEVELOPMENT, you should check the meaning of the word CONTINUING. Judaism did not need Islam to START its development for sure. Islam supposedly supported that ONGOING process. However, this does not mean that Judaism became a copy of Islam. This is the point you are trying to evade to no avail.
aaronjo said:
So as Islamthroughout history “played a substantial role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism” on the one hand, I wonder why Christianity (which also existed during the last 1400 years) did not play any role in shaping the continuing development of Judaism?
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This is your subjective comment. You SUPPOSE that Christianity did not play any significant role in the continuing development of Judaism, which is not a historical fact.
aaronjo said:
If you think Christianity too did play a role, then it must be not in developing Judaism but destroying it with Paul’s theology/polytheism.
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You have not answered my question yet! Why don’t you support unitarian sects of Christianity if the only problem is the so-called polytheism??? Are you ready to accept Jesus as the Messiah and messenger? Are you ready to accept that He was crucified? If you love ISLAM so much and consider it closer to your alleged faith, why don’t you accept its tenets about Jesus???
aaronjo said:
Did you see the contrast here? One (Islam) being helpfull in continuing development and other (Christianity) deconstructing/demolishing it.
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Nope. The only thing I can see is a Muslim pretending to be Jewish due to his identity problem.

Please ask Verus Israel what he means by the phrase “Islam’s substantial role in the continuing development of Judaism”. Is the Islamic support a cultural or a theological one? In what way has Islam helped Judaism continue her development? :rolleyes:
 
aaronjo said:
I am Jewish, as my dad was a Jew. Though my mother was a Unitarian Christian (better than Polytheist Catholics).

I am a moderate Jew, not a Zionist.
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perhaps someone pointed this out already, but if your mother was not a jew, you are only half-jewish. you would have to convert to judaism to be considered truly jewish. just because your dad was a jew, doesn’t make you jewish. so i am thinking that you don’t know your jewish faith very well, if you don’t know that.
 
yes, i am pretty certain that he would be required to convert to be considered truly jewish because you are born jewish only if your mother is also jewish.

you are probably right, you would not be considered half jewish, but said to have had a jewish parent and a christian parent.
 
well, we cannot be born catholic, because it is not passed down through a blood line. there are generations of catholics, but it is because they were raised to be catholics. judaism is different in that respect. it never made sense to me that if a man was jewish because his mother was jewish, but he married a non-jew, therefore, his children are not jewish. i realize the jewish mother is the one who raises a jewish family and teaches the children what it is to be jewish. that is why they discourage mixed marriages in judaism, just like they discourage mixed marriages in the catholic faith, because they want the catholic faith to continue. so in a way you can be half-jewish, if your father is i think and if the father can trace his jewish roots through many generations.
 
i wonder what category aaronjo puts the messianic jew and what he thinks
of the jewish person who becomes a messianic jew?

this, by the way, is a growing movement.
 
correct, a secular jew is usually not very observant and would consider marrying someone outside of their faith. however, if they have children and later want to raise the children jewish, it becomes a problem.

i studied at a synagogue in a program somewhat similar to the RCIA in the Catholic church. some of us were just there to learn more about judaism,
however, there were some there who had married outside of their faith and now they wanted their spouse to learn more about judaism so their children could be raised jewish. and if the spouse was christian, usually her or his family had to work out the christmas and easter issue. some were definitely not going to celebrate christmas where others were going to continue to celebrate both holidays of christmas and hannukah because of grandparents, etc. it becomes very complicated.
 
i wonder if aaronjo knows what the tanakh is.

he probably won’t return unless it is under a new nickname.
 
yes, i think true love conquers all. if two people truly love one another, and i say truly, i think they can work out the faith issue as long as they are both understanding and willing to give and take a little.
 
Angelos said:
This is your subjective comment. You SUPPOSE that Christianity did not play any significant role in the continuing development of Judaism, which is not a historical fact.

If in your mind, your Christanity did indeed play a significant role in the continuing development of Judaism, then please show me what was that role and how it effected Judaism?

But wait, you are not referring to the Inquisition, right?
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aaronjo said:
Actually you need to go back to the Holy Torah and observe Laws and Commandments. Starting with circumcission. Stop following Paul…
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You know and practice the Torah better than St.Paul? (laughs) 😉
 
I’m going to read and browse through the entire thread because this is my favorite subject.

. . .
 
deborahaz said:
i wonder what category aaronjo puts the messianic jew and what he thinks
of the jewish person who becomes a messianic jew?

this, by the way, is a growing movement.
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Yes, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem may have a majority of Hebrews now.
 
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