Judaism Elitist Religion?

[YHWH_Christ]

Forgive me, I do not mean this to sound antisemitic in any way shape or form and I am the least antisemitic person you could ever meet. I was having a dialogue with an Orthodox Jewish friend I met not long ago, since I wanted to understand the Jewish religion better, which included a study of the Talmud and the various hermeneutic methods the Rabbis have developed in order to interpret the Torah. At first he fine with teaching me some things, but when I told him I was a Christian and that I had no desire to actually convert to Judaism, only that I wanted to better understand it in light of my faith, he began to treat me with contempt… I confronted him about this and he told me “I should have never taught you anything in the first place, you’re going to take our traditions and twist them, this is why a lot of Rabbis aren’t willing to accept converts in the first place because gentiles always misunderstand our faith and try to apply it to theirs.” I was taken aback, and I told him that I had no desire to “twist” the religious beliefs, only that I wanted to better understand Jewish traditions. He then told me it’s a disgrace that the Torah is apart of the Christian Bible because gentiles have corrupted the message of it and that I shouldn’t even be reading it. Well our friendship ended, which I feel bad about, and he just came off very… “elitist”, if that’s the right word. I get the feeling that this elitist attitude is prevalent throughout Judaism unfortunately. But once again, I have no desire to “twist” or “combine” Jewish religion with mine… it was simply an attempt to understand… Does anyone else get this feeling?

 

[Bithynian]

Does anyone else get this feeling?

I don’t. One of my professors of Classical Hebrew was a Conservative Jewish exegete, and he was wonderful.

Edit: But as with any personal interaction with someone of any given religion, everyone’s going to have a different experience. Some positive, some negative.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m not seeing him as being elitist. He’s just being protective of his faith; he;s probably been burned before by Christians misinterpreting (in his opinion) or culturally misappropriating his traditions.

As for your friendship ending, if he can’t accept that you want to stay Christian but still have some understanding of his faith, and he can’t do the same in return for yours (stay Jewish but have some understanding of Christianity), then it’s better you don’t be friends. Sometimes friendships between people of different religions just doesn’t work out, if it’s a case of the other person secretly wanting you to convert or perhaps not really wanting to discuss their religion with you and finally their frustration just boils over. I’m sorry you lost a friend, but just let him go and kindly don’t read his attitude into every Jewish person everywhere. There are Jewish people who post right on this forum and don’t act like that.

I would also point out that he is an ORTHODOX Jewish person. You might find the Conservative or Reform Jewish people are much more open to discussions.

I have never met a Jewish person who had a problem discussing their faith with me, but none of the people i met were Orthodox Jewish people. My husband had one workmate who he was friendly with who was Orthodox Jewish, but they did not discuss religion to my knowledge.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Maybe he had a bad experience you don’t lnow about and your conversation stirred up memories of it.

the religious Jews I’ve known aren’t bashful or reluctant to explain things if you have questions.

 

[Pattylt]

Ex-Orthodox Jew here.
Yes, some can be very elitist. Mostly for the reasons mentioned…Christians twisting what they learn and having it used against them. I can attest that these types exist.

However, not all. I know several very Orthodox Jews that love to discuss Talmud and Torah with Christians just as some Christians love to discuss the NT with Jews. I’m sorry you found one that was a bit rude about it and assumed the worst…Jews aren’t supposed to do that but they’re human, too.

Don’t give up. Next time you meet a Jew and decide to discuss religion, ask if he has a problem discussing it with a non Jew. I bet you’ll find some if you keep looking. Judaism has some very different views of religion from Christians and it can take a while to wrap ones head around it. It isn’t Christianity minus Jesus. It’s very different and worth understanding, just as I have enjoyed understanding Christianity!

 

[Todd_Easton]

Though I don’t agree, you can hardly blame your Orthodox Jewish friend for not wanting to teach you about the holy Jewish faith if you have no intention of converting. Jesus himself said, “Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.” (Matt 7:6)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You can hardly blame your Orthodox Jewish friend for not wanting to teach you about the holy Jewish faith if you have no intention of converting.

Yeah, if someone told me they wanted to learn all the deepest truths of the Catholic faith but they planned to go right on being whatever other religion they were, I’d probably tell them to go knock on some other window because I’m not gonna waste my time.

 

[Dan_Defender]

I get the feeling that this elitist attitude is prevalent throughout Judaism unfortunately.

Yes, Orthodox Jews tend to be like this. They are the chosen people and everybody else gets God wrong. Well, at least you didn’t get into Jesus predicting the destruction of Jerusalem or the complete destruction of the Second Temple being a punishment by God on the Jewish nation. They become extremely defensive and angry on such topics.

 

[Kaninchen]

They become extremely defensive and angry on such topics.

Proselytisers can be very annoying.

 

[AlNg]

He then told me it’s a disgrace that the Torah is apart of the Christian Bible

If the Jewish Scriptures is part of the Christian religion, why do Christians then refuse to follow the rules laid down in the Jewish Scriptures. For example, according to Leviticus 19: 28 “You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD.” When presented with this command, some Catholics will say that it does not apply because it is part of the “Old Testament”. A Jew may ask whether G-d changes His mind. So for hundreds of years, G-d commands that you shall not tatoo yourself, and then all of a sudden He changes His mind? But I thought that G-d was unchangeable? Also, the Jewish concept of the Messiah as given in the Jewish Scriptures is that the Messiah would not be divine. So they will not accept any attempt to argue that Jesus was the Messiah as there are several passages in the New Testament that imply that Jesus was God or divine. So they are highly skeptical of any attempt to use the Jewish Holy Scriptures to prove Christianity. Do Christians believe that Mormonism is a fulfillment of Christianity?
Christians believe that the new Testament is complete and does not need any add-ons such as the Koran or such as the Book of Mormon. So why is it surprising that Jews believe similar about their Holy Scriptures?
If you are going to accuse Judaism of being elitist because it does not accept the New Testament, can you say the same about Christianity because it does not accept the Koran or the book of Mormon? BTW, the Mormons that I have been acquainted with {and as well the Muslims } have been people of high moral character and honesty.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If the Jewish Scriptures is part of the Christian religion, why do Christians then refuse to follow the rules laid down in the Jewish Scriptures.

Because Jesus gave us a new covenant. We can recognize the OT Jewish faith as being the basis for Jesus’ new covenant without needing to follow every rule in it, many of which were specific to the Jewish culture of the time.

I also think you likely already knew this answer.

Also, I don’t think the OP was accusing Judaism of being elitist because it didn’t accept the NT, he was just being petulant because an individual Orthodox Jewish person wouldn’t discuss Jewish teaching with him, and he unfortunately extended that judgment to all Jewish people because he was annoyed that he didn’t get the response he wanted, which was apparently “Certainly, sit down, I will explain all the important traditions of my faith to you even though you have no interest in following the teachings.”

As a general point, I’m not sure how your agenda to criticize Catholicism on just about every topic fits into this one. The problem here is not with Catholicism but with a particular non-Jewish person lacking understanding of the mindset of a Jewish person.

 

[BartholomewB]

He then told me it’s a disgrace that the Torah is apart of the Christian Bible because gentiles have corrupted the message of it and that I shouldn’t even be reading it.

That’s very different from the views I have heard. Objections to the name “Old Testament,” yes, because the adjective “old” suggests “former”, “disused,” “superseded.” But I never heard any objection to a non-Jew owning a Bible or reading the Jewish scriptures.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Interesting considering that Judaism in general isn’t meant to convert anyone. To be “saved” Gentiles need to hold to Law of Noah and that’s it. Basically, it’s better to be Gentile than Jew in this regard for us. Being a Jew carries being one of God’s chosen people and knowing truth but Judaism isn’t religion that tries to convert people at all…

It seems like your friend is misinterpreting his own religion in this sense. Granted, without actual authority some Rabbis might have this opinion as he does and therefore he could be “correct” in his own way, but generally this is what I’ve heard stated by some Orthodox Jews.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Since we are freed from those laws as mainly all Christian (not just Catholic) denominations agree, and we are freed by Christ, and we are (as Jews agree) not part of Jewish Nation but are part of Gentiles who only need to subscribe to Law of Noah per Torah (and Old Testament in our terminology), I don’t get your confusion.

Actually Christianity lays on us many more laws than Judaism would. Read Laws of Noah- if you are Gentile then by Judaistic approach you are meant to follow them and just them.

Christians believe that the new Testament is complete and does not need any add-ons such as the Koran or such as the Book of Mormon. So why is it surprising that Jews believe similar about their Holy Scriptures?

They don’t believe that. New Prophets could come… Messiah could come… I have never seen official Jewish source saying that Revelation has ended (unlike Christianity where we hold that authoritatively). It might very well be someone’s opinion but it remains that.

If you are going to accuse Judaism of being elitist because it does not accept the New Testament

Glad nobody did that. You should read posts of other people better. At this point it seems like you read every third sentence, forget the half of that and formulate your response to be as Anti-Catholic as possible… and if you drag some Christians down with it, that’s fine too. May I ask, what is your denomination?

 

[Sarcelle]

Todd_Easton:

You can hardly blame your Orthodox Jewish friend for not wanting to teach you about the holy Jewish faith if you have no intention of converting.

Yeah, if someone told me they wanted to learn all the deepest truths of the Catholic faith but they planned to go right on being whatever other religion they were, I’d probably tell them to go knock on some other window because I’m not gonna waste my time.

I would do the opposite.

I would share with them even if they told me they don’t plan to convert.

Someone did share their Catholic Faith with me, an atheist, even though I told them I don’t plan to convert.

Years later, the seed planted in my mind grew and bore fruit, and here I am now, a Catholic.

I wouldn’t deny someone this gift even if they don’t plan to convert for now. You’ll never know what will happen in the long run. The seed you planted may grow like it did for me.

 

[Crusader13]

Agreed! We should be willing to share our faith with anyone who asks. I’d rather have someone know the truths of our faith, rather than the lies and misconceptions, regardless of whether they intend to convert or not.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I realize that seeds can be planted that blossom later, and that others have more patience than me.

I’m the suspicious sort and, unless the person asking was on the level of a “First Things” theology geek, would suspect the person was up to no good trying to get me to tell him what I would consider a lot of very holy, important, and somewhat private things.

I’ve accepted that I may not be cut out for evangelization due to my lack of patience with people. I do not recommend that people use me as their example, but I am truthfully telling how I would probably react.

I would be happy to give the guy the basic “view from 10,000 feet” if he were respectful, I’ve done that for many people in the past, but I’m not going to go into great depth with him if he’s not seriously interested in potentially converting. It sounded like the OP was looking for a pretty deep and time-consuming level of explanation from his Jewish friend. If somebody wanted that from me I’d tell him to just go take RCIA, or read the Catechism. If he is not willing to do those things then I reckon he’s not really that interested.

 

[Sarcelle]

I understand.

I wasn’t overtly hostile to believers when I was an atheist. I was raised atheist so I didn’t have the baggage or hang ups a lot of the more hostile ex-Catholics or recovering Catholics seem to carry. I was honestly curious about a faith I was never taught. I think the people I questioned picked up on that. I wasn’t there to argue but to learn.

I understand that if people were deliberately there to be hostile or argumentative, I would have turned away and walked away. No need for unnecessary drama. I would have been throwing that seed onto rocky ground amongst thorns and weeds.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

To be honest, I guess I can understand this and I can understand where he was coming from after reflecting. I just found it very offensive when he told me I shouldn’t even be reading the Torah in the first place, that it is a disgrace that its even apart of our religious tradition because we “twist” it. That made me very angry but I have attempted to reach out to this individual again and foster a better understanding but he refuses to speak to me now.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

Trying to do something nice for you is annoying? That’s sad. But anyway, I wasn’t trying to proselytize. I simply wanted to understand your hermeneutic methods. The Torah/Pentateuch is holy scripture for us Christians too.