Judaism Elitist Religion?

[BartholomewB]

Can you or someone provide a couple paragraphs summary?

That puts me in mind of what Pascal wrote in the opening paragraph of one of his Provincial Letters. Paraphrasing from memory, “I apologize for writing such a long letter this time, but I didn’t have enough time to write a short one.” In my case, I lack the knowledge of the Jewish religion that would allow me to summarize the main differences in a few succinct sentences.

I can quote you just one example of the kind of false assumptions that are commonly made. If you were to ask any Christian, either Catholic or Calvinist or anything else, where is a good place to look in the OT for prophecies of the Messiah, it’s a safe bet they will mention Isaiah as one of the main books where these prophecies are found. And yet, if you actually read Isaiah, what will you find there about the Messiah? Isaiah is one of the longest books in the OT. How often does the Hebrew word “Mashiach” occur in the sixty-six chapters of Isaiah, adding up to over 1200 verses? Answer: just once, just one single verse (45:1) where it refers to Cyrus, whom Isaiah praises as “the anointed of the Lord” for freeing Israel from the Babylonian exile.

Isaiah 45:1 RSVCE - - Bible Gateway

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Are you saying that the main difference between Judaism and Christianity, apart from Christology, is that the Christian does not properly understand or practice the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures?

How does the Jewish person understand and practice them differently, apart from Christ, of course?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’d accept that too - “there is no one concept of Judaism and thus no concrete answer”.

 

[BartholomewB]

I’m not the person to answer that question, Tis. As I said, I don’t have the requisite knowledge. I wish I had.

One person who does possess that knowledge, in abundance, in Henry Wansbrough, the Benedictine monk who was the editor of both the New Jerusalem Bible (1985) and the Revised New Jerusalem Bible (2019). Some of his writings can be read online. I’ll see what I can find, but give me an hour or two. I’m busy with other things at the moment.

 

[Wannano]

I’d accept that too - “there is no one concept of Judaism and thus no concrete answer”.

Isn’t it a bit ironic to expect that Jewish posters won’t reply telling you to go “knock on another window?”

 

[Pattylt]

What, exactly does it mean to practice Judaism? If Judaism is not “Christianity without Christ” then what is it instead? An ethical system? A belief that you are one of God’s chosen people? Or something else?

Great questions and I’m not sure I can give you all the answers or if they will help or not! Also, you will get different answers from different Jews as you’ve already discovered.

Judaism is an Orthopraxic religion. It’s not centered on beliefs but on practice. So, what’s the practice…it varies, but each Jew is called to be a light unto the world in some way. To make this world more like what the world to come is going to be like…without really knowing what the world to come will BE like.

Many Jews feel they are called by God to study His Torah, live the commandments and incorporated them into ones life with joy. We are expected to enjoy this life while trying to eliminate suffering as much as possible. Most Jews believe we all obtain the world to come after this life but there aren’t “rules” about getting there. Some believe there is a one year purgation for our sins, some don’t. Beliefs aren’t the focus, the living out of our lives as Jews are. And yes, we are allowed to be angry at God, deny Him, even curse Him. Jews are expected to talk to God frequently, question what on earth He’s up to and trust in Him…often in the same day! The expectations are, however, that whether you believe or not, you do as prescribed in the Torah. This is why you’ll find Jewish atheists that still go to synagogue or celebrate the high holy days and are just as Jewish as the most pious Jews as long as they are living as a Jew.

When I left Judaism, it took a bit for me to stop living “Jewish”. Most atheist Jews aren’t like me. I finally left all of it. I stopped living as a Jew entirely. I guess you could call it a self identification thing. Judaism is very cultural. It has been a “race” for thousands of years.

It’s hard to comprehend from a Christian perspective. If a Christian stopped believing in God and occasionally went to a Christmas service and decorated a tree, most of you wouldn’t consider them Christian anymore because it’s the beliefs that matter most.

Don’t get me wrong…there are plenty of Jews that very much have beliefs and quite strong ones. It’s just that the faith isn’t centered on belief alone but includes practices…especially charity. An atheist Jew is often still involved in charity works as it’s an integral part of our upbringing or better yet, our culture. Even I never walked away from charity giving.

Cont…

 

[Pattylt]

Final thought on Kabbalah…there are two (maybe more) kinds of Kabbalah…the Madonna kind which is a lighter spiritual version that no knowledgeable Jew would touch and a the “real” Kabbalah that requires years of study, age of at least 45 yers old…often older…and is very deep and not really shared except with other Kabbalahists. Whatever is involved in that Kabbalah I have no idea. Only occasional ideas come from it and honestly even growing up amongst the Orthodox, never knew anyone studying it. I think the Hasids are more into it?

Anything help? Clear as mud? It’s complex as probably any 5000 year religion is!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Isn’t it a bit ironic to expect that Jewish posters won’t reply telling you to go “knock on another window?”

Unlike the post to which you are referring, I’m not expecting them to educate me in all the ins and outs and deep knowledge of their faith.

I was expecting like 1 paragraph on why it’s different. That’s all.

If you asked me how Catholicism was different from Judaism, I could explain my view/ opinion of how it is different in 1 paragraph or a short bulleted list. In fact, I already did.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Thank you, Patty! That was very helpful. I can see some big differences now that don’t revolve around Christ.

It’s hard to comprehend from a Christian perspective. If a Christian stopped believing in God and occasionally went to a Christmas service and decorated a tree, most of you wouldn’t consider them Christian anymore because it’s the beliefs that matter most.

Yes, exactly. I totally don’t get this with my Jewish friends who say they don’t really believe in God any more but they still want to celebrate all the Jewish holidays and emphasize their Jewish heritage, and not in a self-deprecating way like a Catholic who’s left the church will admit having “Catholic guilt” or talk about nuns he had in school. Your explanation makes more sense of it because I don’t feel comfortable just asking them why they are that way, it would seem like prying to me.

 

[Pattylt]

I will confirm that we read the OT completely different from the Christian perspective. For Christians, everything is interpreted in the light of Christ. Jews read none of it in that manner. None of it is a prophesy of a coming Messiah that’s also God. It’s rarely even discussed as about a coming Messiah except in the passages that specifically mention Messiah…none of which seem to Jews as being fulfilled by Christ. To Jews, the OT is a history of their interactions with God and His covenant. It’s the history that God wanted us to know and to interpret.

 

[Pattylt]

For emphasis, I’ll add…
Christianity is all about beliefs. Each branch has specific beliefs that tie them to their church.

Judaism is wide open for varying beliefs. To be Jewish isn’t about believing in this or that at all. Hours upon hours of discussions take place amongst Jews on how they interpret scripture here or there. It’s part of the religion itself. How they live and interact as a Jew is what it means to be Jewish. The Orthopraxic vs the Orthodoxic.

The Jews for Jesus issue is…ummm, interesting. I know many Christians that claim they are still Jewish, aren’t they? Most (not all) Jews will say no. They switched from actions and behaviors to correct beliefs which tends to have most Jews consider them no longer Jewish. It’s also a contentious discussion as many Jews for Jesus set out to convert Jews…not appreciated by any religion! Also, most of them weren’t Jewish to begin with. Hope this helps with definitions better, too!

I left Judaism long ago but all my family is still Jewish with a variety of beliefs therein. I’m always happy to share what I know, however…limited as it is sometimes :hugs:

 

[meltzerboy2]

Your former friend is being rude and a bit of a jerk. What he says about converts is just plain wrong: the fear is NOT that gentiles are going to twist the faith but rather that they are not ready for the responsibilities involved in being Jewish. Thus they are tested to find out if they are serious about conversion. One of those responsibilities is to treat ALL people with dignity and respect, which is something your Orthodox Jewish friend failed to do. Are there other (Orthodox) Jews like this? Yes, but certainly not all or even most. The Jews who behave as such don’t really understand the basic tenets of their own religion despite their orthodoxy, and, apart from their own human pride, there is no excuse for this behavior. Shame on them.

 

[BartholomewB]

Tis, here’s something I posted just a week or two ago on a different thread. Henry Wansbrough is thought to be either the main author or the sole author of this document published by the Pontifical Biblical Commission. In this post I transcribed a key paragraph about the contrasting concepts of the Messiah.

Jewish vs Christian Messiah Sacred Scripture

@Veritas6, there is a great deal of truth in the assertion that Jesus was not the kind of Messiah that the Jewish people had been led to expect. You will find a very full Catholic analysis of the question in The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible, a book-length document published by the Pontifical Biblical Commission in 2001, over the signature of the Commission’s president, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/…

 

[BartholomewB]

If you asked me how Catholicism was different from Judaism, I could explain my view/ opinion of how it is different in 1 paragraph or a short bulleted list. In fact, I already did.

Here are your bullets, and a few brief comments on them. Please bear in mind that I have no expert knowledge of any of this, just one or two ideas picked up here and there over the years.

Similarities from my perspective (which could be wrong):

• Personal relationship with an interested, monotheistic, creator God
• Sense of being part of a group special to God
• Hope of salvation
• Emphasis on shared group ritual
• Shared OT scriptures

On your first two points: Agreed, with the reservation that the second one is more important than the first one. Judaism is what I would call a “we” religion rather than an “I” religion.

Hope of salvation: No, not really. Hope of bodily resurrection, all at once, at an unforeseeable date in the future. Note that “all at once” doesn’t mean everybody without exception. Some souls deserve to be resurrected, but some don’t. I believe the idea expressed in 2 Macc 12:43 still holds good in Jewish eschatology, but @Pattylt and @meltzerboy2, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Shared group ritual: Certainly, very much so – much more, in fact, than in Catholicism, because in addition to synagogue worship there are very many rituals practiced in the home, the most obvious one being the Passover seder.

Shared OT scripture: Yes and no. The scriptures, as they stand in black and white, are obviously the same (without the deuterocanonicals, of course), but the theological ideas attached to them can often be quite radically different, as in the case of the contrasting concepts of the term “Messiah.”

 

[Pattylt]

very many rituals practiced in the home, the most obvious one being the Passover seder.

I’d place lighting the Sabbath candles every Friday evening as even more important to a Jewish home life.

Salvation is tricky…again, there are various views on the need for salvation. The final judgment is discussed as not necessary as we are judged every Yom Kippur and others saying there will be a final judgement at death. Once again, it’s not the belief but the practice. One think most Jews will agree on is that speculation of heaven is pointless, we have no way to know. Middle Ages Rabbis loves to speculate on paradise or Eden because living was so miserable then. Even the views of who is saved is discussed and debated and once again, it’s speculated because no one really knows. Jews are all about speculation as you can see! Mostly, be a good Jew and no worries!

 

[TK421]

The OT speaks for itself: Judaism was indeed formed as a highly exclusive religion, but that isn’t a bad thing because there are reasons for that.

This person you spoke with had some negative experiences with Christians when he was younger and it seems like he is still coping with it.

 

[AlNg]

I also find that often times the Judaic elements of Christianity are ignored by Jewish apologists,

Specifically which are these?

I do want to be united with you in our belief of the God of Abraham

Jews don’t believe this because the God of Abraham was not a Trinitarian God.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I would even go so far as to say that, in Judaism, the home is just as important as the synagogue. The ritual of candle lighting on Friday night is, as you say, of great importance, as is the Passover Seder. In candle lighting, the (kitchen) table is the altar and the candles are placed on it. The challah is covered: I read somewhere this is possibly so as not to embarrass it by the bright lights of the candles. The prayers are said over the candles by the woman of the household. But the preparations in the home BEFORE the Sabbath are also significant: cleaning, food shopping, cooking, washing clothes, bathing. And the festive meal on the Sabbath, the refraining from work and business as usual, the meditations, the joy of life in just being and not doing or creating, the (literally) romantic and sexual behavior encouraged on the Sabbath. The home becomes a spiritual abode of Gd, a place of joy and life, a place of spiritual awakening, a transformation of the mundane behavior of eating, drinking, sex, and hygiene into otherworldly activities.

 

[Polak]

Talk to one Jew you’ll think it is, talk to another and you won’t feel that way.

I’d actually argue that both Judaism and Christianity are elitist in some respects. Both will refuse to acknowledge other gods.

I think you could make the same argument for any religion or at least almost all of them. Each religion thinks it is right, otherwise what would be the point of it?

Proselytisers can be very annoying.

Christians are called to do it. Jews are not, as far as I know. Tis the way it is.

 

[Polak]

Yes, exactly. I totally don’t get this with my Jewish friends who say they don’t really believe in God any more but they still want to celebrate all the Jewish holidays and emphasize their Jewish heritage

I suppose because they are proud to be Jews and even though they don’t believe in what their ancestors did, they still see it as part of who they are, so celebrate Jewish religious holidays in a ‘cultural way’.