Judaism Elitist Religion?

[Niblo]

When I became a mother, I lived in fear of becoming my mother!

There was a BBC programme called ‘Old Jews Telling Jokes’ (you can find sections on YouTube). One joke:

‘What’s the difference between a Jewish Mother and a Rottweiler?’

‘Eventually…the Rottweiler let’s go.’

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m simply pointing out the obvious. I do not mean to offend you. I apologize if I have. I am simply stating the neutral position over your sectarian one.

Um, do you not realize that your last few posts appear offensive and rude even to non-Jewish people like me, a Roman Catholic?

You basically told a Jewish person that they were wrong about their own Jewish beliefs. And claimed you, a non-Jewish person, knew better based on your research.

If this is how you also carried on with your Jewish friend whom you started the thread about, then I can understand why he got mad at you. The things you are saying are disrespectful. Then when a Jewish person rightly gets annoyed at you, you accuse them of being “elitist” because they don’t want to participate in your somewhat rude discussion.

 

[Pattylt]

Pattylt:

Jewish mothers can wield guilt like nobody else!

When I became a mother, I lived in fear of becoming my mother!

You and me both!
My mom could dish out guilt like a pro but my Aunt was the queen of guilt. She had a voice that carried for miles and my poor cousin Buddy would cringe when his mom yelled full volume out the front door all kinds of threats! “Keep that up and even the schitksas won’t want you!”

 

[Kaninchen]

‘Eventually…the Rottweiler let’s go.’

An ocean helps in that.

 

[Kaninchen]

I wonder how anybody has the time for it.

 

[Kaninchen]

My mom could dish out guilt like a pro but my Aunt was the queen of guilt.

Some of it I put down to a kind of PTSD in their parents’ generation. Even out of harm’s way there had been/was a lot of distress/fear to cope with.

 

[Polak]

Carry on like this and you’ll move to the ‘ignore’ list.

I don’t know about Judaism being elitist but Kaninchen is certainly extremely defensive anytime anyone not Jewish has any opinion about Jews on here. At times her responses here are almost nasty I would even say.

By the way I think I’m already on her ignore list. Feel free to join the club.

 

[Polak]

Not you, nor members of any other religions for that matter.

End of discussion.

People have a right to an opinion @(name removed by moderator), even if to many others the opinion is wrong. Responses like the one above aren’t ones I like to see on these forums.

 

[Polak]

I find it the equivalent of somebody putting their fingers in their ears and yelling ‘la la la la’ because they don’t want to listen to another person’s point of view.

And yes, of course you have a right to it, I just wish people would use it for the right reason, not because they disagree with somebody. That to me, is childish.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

It’s not disrespectful at all. I operate off of facts and logic, not arbitrary sectarian disputes.

 

[Pattylt]

I just want to point out, from a Jewish perspective, a Jewish Christian is as nonsensical as a Hindu Mormon. Once you accept Jesus as your savior you just aren’t Jewish anymore even if you yell from the rooftops that you are still Jewish. Accepting Jesus makes you Christian. The two religions may have had common roots thousands of years ago but dramatically moved apart around the year 300ad. Btw, the movement apart was from both sides, not just the Jews and not just the Christians. Both managed to sever all ties with each other.

I know some may argue the point but if Judaism says Messianic Christians or Jewish Christians aren’t Jewish, you really have no further say. I’m often reminded of the arguments about Mormons and if they’re Christian? What does the RCC say? Does it accept their baptism? No.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, if you insist on claiming you’re right, even after multiple posters have told you that you’re out of line, don’t expect people to be very sympathetic to you complaining about the Jewish folks, or anyone else, not wanting to talk to you about religion.

Have a nice evening.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

I’m not out of line at all, you’re the one claiming that. You don’t care about facts and logic. You operate on emotions.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

I just want to point out, from a Jewish perspective, a Jewish Christian is as nonsensical as a Hindu Mormon. Once you accept Jesus as your savior you just aren’t Jewish anymore even if you yell from the rooftops that you are still Jewish.

Please tell that to the Elcesaites. Sorry but, I don’t operate off of faulty Enlightenment notions of religion. Humans are too complex for that. The truth is is that Judaism and Christianity have a unique enough relationship with each other that makes Jewish Christianity possible in a way you couldn’t do with other religions. You’re right, a Hindu could not also be a Mormon, but that’s because the relationship and history between those two faiths is fundamentally different. The fact that something like Messianic Judaism can exist, and is somewhat sizable, demonstrates that uniqueness about Judaism and Christianity.

 

[Pattylt]

Please tell that to the Elcesaites.

Who we only know about from a writer from around the year 200 which makes them within the early period where the final separation hadn’t happened yet. Quite a bit before the Enlightenment?

I’m not even sure why Judaism rejects Jewish Christians. I suspect that the anti semitism of the Middle Ages has much to do with it but honestly, I don’t know all the reasons. I just know that Christians can consider them as also Jewish but Jews don’t. If you want to consider that elitist, fine by me. They do accept the Ethiopian jews as Jews because they live as Jews and behave as Jews. Jewish Christians are a mishmash mash of the two faiths…a supposed return to the early Christian Jews . What’s ironic is most of them are converts from Protestantism, only a few from Judaism. To the Jews themselves, they aren’t Jewish. You can claim otherwise. Who decides?

 

[Polak]

I just want to point out, from a Jewish perspective, a Jewish Christian is as nonsensical as a Hindu Mormon. Once you accept Jesus as your savior you just aren’t Jewish anymore even if you yell from the rooftops that you are still Jewish.

I remember this was raised in another topic and it still fascinates me greatly, that an atheist can still be a Jew, but belief in Christ is the ultimate no no. If you want to be Jewish it doesn’t matter if you believe in God or not, but you absolutely must reject Jesus. You realise if a Christian agrees to that definition of being Jewish, they basically see Jews as damned, those who can’t be saved, because the only way to heaven is through Jesus and apparently you have to reject him to be Jewish.

It doesn’t seem like elitism, but it certainly shows that those Jews who believe this, hold a great deal of contempt for Christianity. I mean, they really dislike it, probably more than any other religion (so much for Judeo-Christian culture).

It also confuses me on the another level. Is it correct to say that most Jews believe that if your mother is Jewish, that makes you Jewish?

If so, whether the Jew chooses to believe in Christ or not, surely shouldn’t stop them being Jewish if their mother is Jewish. The whole ‘mother being Jewish’ issue almost makes it seem like a ‘Jewish by blood’ type of thing, so you can’t suddenly reject that because of what somebody chooses to believe, can you? I wonder how Jews who push the idea that you aren’t Jewish if you believe in Jesus, explain that.

 

[Polak]

Yes I know, I was saying if a Christian accepts that part of being Jewish involves rejection of Christ, then Jews essentially can’t be redeemed if they are Jewish. Obviously Jews would not believe this.

 

[Pattylt]

Because Judaism is practiced in the home which is even more important than going to synagogue, Judaism considers anyone born of a Jewish mother as Jewish until the child is old enough to decide for him/herself. This is also different than the Priestly line of Judaism where it follows the father. It’s not the only way to be Jewish, though. Conversion makes one every bit as Jewish as their Rabbi!

I’m hesitant to admit that Jews reject someone as no longer Jewish when they convert to a Christian religion but I won’t deny there are some really hard feelings there. I do know many Jews that consider a Christian convert as the epitome of betrayal. Long memories of treatment keep this whether it’s right or wrong. It’s one of those areas where it just is what it is. I don’t defend it, I just recognize it.

Jews really don’t care if Christians condemn them to hell or not. It isn’t a part of the Jewish beliefs for the most part. I know very few Jews that believe in hell. My family certainly didn’t so it’s an empty threat for them.

I’ll never fully understand why Jews reject converts to Jewish Christianity as no longer Jewish. They have converted to an orthodoxy belief system from an Orthopraxic one, even if they continue to practice the Jewish rituals. It’s considered a leaving of the community of Jews. I’m now outside the faith completely since I discontinued the practices as well as the beliefs. Had I chosen to continue the practices, I’d still be counted…though no one is happy when a Jew no longer believes in God. If I chose to return to practice, I guess I’m Jewish again!

 

[Polak]

It’s a little different though. Krishna had nothing to do with Christianity, while Jesus as a man was a Jew and was rejected by Jews. There is some connection there even if it isn’t ‘that important’ to Jews.

Personally not keen on the ‘Christians were the baddies in Christian Jewish relations and must do all the apologising’ approach, but I don’t want to get into that now.

Jews really don’t care if Christians condemn them to hell or not.

Of course, just like Christians don’t care if some Orthodox Jews believe they’ll have hundreds of ‘goyim’ servants each in the afterlife, just like any believer of one religion doesn’t generally care about the beliefs of another religion.

I know very few Jews that believe in hell

Are there religious Jews in that too? If so, what do religious Jews believe happens to ‘bad’ people?

I’m now outside the faith completely since I discontinued the practices as well as the beliefs. Had I chosen to continue the practices, I’d still be counted

Really? So you have to at least do the practices to be considered Jewish?

I suspect this is one of those ask a different Jew get a different answer type things.

I’m pretty sure some Jews would consider a non practising atheist Jew to still be a Jew, while a convert to Christianity such as say, Roy Schoeman, would not be considered Jewish even though he sees himself as a Jewish believer in Christ.

 

[Polak]

Well that’s just perfect for an atheist isn’t it? No punishment for doing evil things in life, you just die. It’s what they believe happens anyway.